1. Are you a current member with account or password issues?

    Please visit following page for more information

    Dismiss Notice

Your gun is not big enough...

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by watchcollector1968, Nov 13, 2010.

  1. jwhite75

    jwhite75 Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    408
    Likes Received:
    3
    Thats probably because he was never in an off duty situation where he had to use it. If he had to defend himself against an attacker or other armed criminals, acting as an off duty cop, he would be hoping and praying for at least a .38.
     
  2. RGNY

    RGNY Empty Pockets

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
    Messages:
    583
    Likes Received:
    15
    no doubt. and a different era. just throwing it out there.
     
  3. CF

    CF Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    72
    Likes Received:
    23
    I hope those who advocate "big bores" also supplement their "system" with unarmed combatives of some sort, as well as manual tools like impact weapons or blades. Unless you are an LEO, or in the military, for civilians the firearm (whether it be big or small bore) is just one component of the system. Yes you might have a big bore but by all means that does not mean you are "all set". You can have smaller caliber gun and still effectively defend yourself. You can have a larger caliber gun and still get killed.

    It's a crapshoot and we are talking about increasing odds. A large bore handgun alone, all things being equal, could increase those odds. But all things are NOT equal and therefore a large (or small) bore handgun is just another tool (for the civilian, that is) .... IMO.

    We do our research, and then we make our decisions.
     
  4. Monocrom

    Monocrom Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2009
    Messages:
    8,035
    Likes Received:
    8,227
    Nope. Two spots:

    Back of the head, just above the neck. And the pelvis. Shatter the pelvis, legs no longer work; no matter how determined the attacker might be. But one is illegal and tough to hit, while the other is tough to hit. That's why center mass is emphasized.
     
  5. seeker_two

    seeker_two Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    QFT....whether you have a big bore, small bore, or no bore at all....
     
  6. rule303

    rule303 Empty Pockets

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is my take, FWIW, on the subject of "mouseguns". The first is that I wouldn't want to be shot by a BB gun if I could avoid it so I give a fair amount of credence to the deterrent effect of the presence of a gun; regardless of caliber. Having said that the smallest I carry is my kel tec p32. If I were to carry a .22 it wouldn't be a semi-auto becasue the reliability just isn't there..I don't care what model or manufacturer..the problem is inherent to the round itself. The only reason the .25 ACP even exists is because John Browning wasn't satisfied with the reliability of the .22 in a semi-auto. In any revover other than the NAA you are pretty much taking up as much real estate as a .38 special or .32 magnum. The trigger pull on a double action .22 is also horrendous but necessary to reliably set off the rimfire .22.

    I can see the attraction of the NAA and don't fault folks for choosing one. It isn't my cup of tea but I see the niche that it fufills. I have shot one and I doubt my ability to manipulate one while under stress. If it was all that was availible it would certainly beat a pointed stick (or a bannana http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afi7_01GnxY).

    Folks like Clint Smith carry guns for a living and have a pretty weapon-centric lifestyle so I tend to put his comments in context. I am not geared (both literally and figuratively) for carrying 2 1911s (or even one 1911). I am, however, geared for carrying a hammerless .38 like the Taurus 850 or the SW 642. Speaking of gun guy commentary I believe it is Mas Ayoob who tells an anecdote about a bunch of hardcore gun type sitting around a pool and talking about the best carry gun and one guy put forth the j frame. When asked why he said "Becasue I am carrying one now." He was only wearing swim trunks at the time.
     
  7. watchcollector1968

    watchcollector1968 Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    363
    You have a point there for sure. I started out with a 22lr which is a pretty small frame. I got pretty good with it and had no problems handling it but I could see where under stress it could be difficult. Definitely do not want to be stuck trying to adjust your grip while under huge stress.

    Stepping up to the WMR with its larger frame made all the difference as far as these tiny guns go...it falls more naturally into a good secure grip.
     
  8. collisrw

    collisrw Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2009
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    How many times have you shot some one with either an large or small caliber gun?
     
  9. jackknife

    jackknife Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,501
    Likes Received:
    4,205
    The fact is these kind of discussions are totally usless. If someone tells me my gun is too small, I'm going to regard him as an idiot who does not know how to mind his own business. People are all different, with different needs, likes, dislikes, and abilities. What works for one person, may not work at all for another. Choices of clothing, type of neighborhood lived in, kind of job, kind of pastimes, all differ.

    Besides, the kind of gun one uses is the smallest part of the equation. First rule of a gunfight is have a gun. But the second rule is to be good with what you carry. Let me ask you guys a question; who would you rather go up against, Bob Mundan with a .22 Ruger pistol or a inner city gangbanger with a Tech 9 who holds his gun sideways?

    Uh-huh.

    The person behind the gun is the difference. From what I've seen on the ranges around here, the gung-ho reader of the gun magazines, the young guys with the tactical auto's and sight rails, are some of the worst shots I've seen. We had to close our clubs range down for a month to do some sound deadening work, so I had to use a public range. What I saw was a little scary. Lots of gun shop comando's with all the right gear as preached by the gun rags and the guru's with, and lots of wasted money by people who can't more than half decent shoot on a well lit range. Gonna be ugly if they have to shoot under less than great conditions.

    I know a man who had one gun his whole life. A .22 Colt woodsman he bought in 1937. He liked to shoot, and shot at least a hundred rounds a week. One day, on a family outing in 1952, he was assaulted by a semi drunk man wielding a large sheath knife. He shot the knife wielder with his woodsman and killed him right there on the spot. All three rounds fired went right were they needed to be to drop his attacker on the spot. He knew his choice of weapon very well. A few years after Bernard Goetz made headlines, there was a second subway gunman. Witnesses say a gang of young thugs yanked an older grey haired man out of his seat and threw him to the floor and stated to beat and rob him. There was a small crack like a fire cracker according to witnesses, and the thug right on top of the man keeled over dead, the rest fleeing the subway car. The older man got up, pulled his coat collar up and stood facing the door. Train stopped and he disappeared in the crowd. Unlike Goetz, he was not stupid enough to give himself up tothe police, and he was never found. The fired shell casing was a .25acp.

    Beware of parroting off the stuff spouted by the gun shop guru's who's only interest is to sell you the latest hot lick trendy gun and ammo the magazines push in an artificially inflated market. After reading the Armed Citizen collum in the American Rifleman for 50 years now, I've yet to read of a 300 pound crack addict that's as tough as Conan the barbarian. Most criminals seem to be cowardly little sons of ------- who don't want to get in a gun fight to see what you have in your wallet or house. But it does seem that any decent gun that a person can shoot well, will do. And that means practice. A lot of it. I know some people out there who shoot 500 rounds a week of bulk pack .22's from Walmart, who are a heck of a lot more dangerous than some people I've seen using the worshiped 1911 or latest tactical 9mm, who may shoot 500 rounds a year, if that.

    Never say a gun is not big enough. It all depends on who's holding it. And how much they shoot it.

    If somebody on a gun range tells you your gun is not big enough, and he does not even know you, just smile and walk away from him. He's an idiot.

    Oh, by the way, for a first hand account of what it's like to be shot in the face with a .22, Please read the book Serpico, by Frank Serpico, formally of the N.Y.C. police department. It not only ruined his day by leaving him laying on the filthy floor of a run down tenniment, but it left him unable to resume his police career. He writes a very vivid desription of what its like to be shot by a small caliber gun.
     
  10. Monocrom

    Monocrom Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2009
    Messages:
    8,035
    Likes Received:
    8,227
    In all fairness, getting shot wasn't the only reason he didn't resume his police career.
     
  11. rule303

    rule303 Empty Pockets

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    0
    If the minimum standard for posting on here about EDC items was first hand experience using them in a real life or death situation then I suspect these forums wouldn't see a lot of traffic. I've never flipped a vehicle going 55 MPH but I have pretty definite opinions about the use of seatbelts.
     
  12. rule303

    rule303 Empty Pockets

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't see how the exchange of opinions is useless as long as it is done in a civil manner. I agree with you on the value of the .22 for practice. I have understudy weapons in revolver, semi-auto and conversion kits for my ARs. My reason for carrying the .32 over the .22 has nothing to do what anybody in this month's issue of "Infomercials for guns disguised as product reviews" has to say or the advice from the portly youngster sporting thousands of bucks worth of tacti-tool gear shooting the next lane over from me at the range. It is a decsion informed by my own experiences shooting the weapons and has more to do with the weapons platform then the cartridge itself. For instance, if a .22 double action didn't have to have an incredibly heavy trigger and actually come in a sub j-frame package I'd be all over it.

    I also won't criticize someone else's decsion because it is different then the one I have arrived at. I don't think a 5.5MM velodog is a great idea nor would I think carrying a Lorcin .22 is a great idea but if it makes some other individual happy then more power to them.

    I have been reading the Armed Citizen column for about 3 decades myself and I can't recall a story where the armed citizen came out on the losing end of things. I don't believe they are intersted in publishing stories where the good guy lost becasue the weapon, caliber, or skill level of the good guy came up short. I am not bashing the column or you for citing it; just putting things in perspective.

    As far as more empirical evidence of .22 stopping power goes there is the 70 something barber who stopped a robbery with two headshots from a high standard .22 magnum derringer. 2 shots, one dead and one incapcitated criminal. I absoluetely agree that the person behind the trigger is more important than the weapon being activated by that trigger. Apparently this guy had been prcticing with that weapon very regularly for many, many years. FWIW, I believe the guy switched to carrying a j-frame .38 after the shooting. This incident doesn't mean the .22 mag is a death ray but it certainly seemed to work out for this guy. Evans and Sanow rate the .22LR as a one-shot stop ~30% if I remember right. Considering the standards they use that is pretty impressive.

    In regards to someone offering at the range offering unsolicited advice or criticism..that is pretty :censored: rude. I have only had that happen maybe twice that I can think of in ~30 years of shooting. On the two occasions I have clear reccollections of I thanked the individual for the free advice and assured them it was worth every penny.

    On a tangentially related note didn't Serpico also manage to shoot himself with a .22 zip gun when he was a kid? I read the book the summer after 6th grade so my memory is a little fuzzy. I do recall building a zip gun after reading the book, though...that was a pretty short project. One round of .22 short was enough to convince me that the concept worked and that I had better ways to risk injuring myself.


     
  13. 5534

    5534 Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interesting to see so many opinions but what about ammunition quality. I'm no expert but muzzle velocity would also play a part in all previous scenarios. Also bullet type - fmj. Soft tip. Hollow tip. Franjable ( however you spell it ). Tactically bonded. Ect
    Different rounds in the same weapon will do different things

    Just my thoughts hope I haven't annoyed anyone
     
  14. grayman

    grayman Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,899
    Likes Received:
    1,433
    When I was shooting competitively, I built a 1911 lower receiver like my competition pistol and put a .22 conversion top-end on it to use for practice. I was shooting a lot so I tried several options in the bulk pack .22lr offerings. What I decided to do was stay away from the bulk pack .22 as it would tend to cause feeding problems as a result of the way it was packed in the box, i.e. bent cartridges.

    I had also won a Walther P22 after they came out. I bought a variety of high-velocity .22lr such as Velocitors and a few other like cartridges. We were tinkering out behind my gunsmiths shop and fired a few rounds at a 55 gallon steel barrel 65 yards down range. We were all very surprised to find that the high-velocity rounds had punched through both sides of that steel barrel at that distance.

    These days I only run Lapua Subsonic .22lr through my P22.;D

    Here are a few of my smaller kids. Glock 26 9mm, S&W Model 36 with CT grips .38 Spl, Seecamp .32 ACP, and AMT Backup 9mm.
    [​IMG]
     
  15. In_The_Pitt

    In_The_Pitt Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    22
    Any gun/bullet can kill. Any gun/bullet combo can provide a one shot stop. But when it comes to my backside, I want the most gun that I can operate proficiently.
    Carry and use what you want. Because when it comes right down to it, we all have to live with the consequences of the choices we make.
     
  16. HotDiggity

    HotDiggity Empty Pockets

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    3
    OK, just a little rant myself. My fist one here as a matter of fact. I just finished all 6 pages of this thread and I think most everyone missed the point in the OP (not that it wasn't a good read anyway). The main issue seems to be one of convenience, as quoted above. What baffles me is the tendency I see toward smaller weapons because of an apparent inability to conceal larger ones effectively with a given wardrobe. I currently carry a 5" M&P Pro in 9mm and also have carried on occasion a full-size 1911 and CZ 75. My daily dress in the summer is shorts and a t-shirt. In winter it's jeans and a t-shirt. I've carried the same weapons IWB in dress slacks and shirt/tie. I don't have a problem concealing these larger guns IWB, nor do I find it uncomfortable (aside from the weight of the full size, all-steel 1911 and CZ 75). Obviously, we all have different body types and levels of comfort. I can tell you that it is much tougher to conceal a weapon on the belt if you're over weight. I've been on both sides of that personally. Still, it can be done effectively, conveniently, and without discomfort.

    The point is, it's not much less convenient to stick a small or medium sized weapon in an IWB holster than it is to cram a J-frame and pocket holster in your front pocket (i do that occasionally too). If it's a matter of comfort and attitude, then that's a different story altogether. It's been said that carrying a weapon should be comforting, not comfortable. I find a lot of truth to that, but I also find that there is no (good) reason that it can't be both. And I've seen no required dress that makes it impossible or even very difficult to do so. What we're really down to is attitude. If someone doesn't want to go to the trouble to arm themselves appropriately, I have no issue with that. But, let's just see it for what it is.

    On another note, I constantly see references to "its' better to have 'X' than nothing at all." If a level of proficiency has been reached with 'X', I agree completely. Just remember that we're responsible for every round that goes downrange. I'd argue that some people should opt to NOT carry rather than put the lives of innocent bystanders at risk. I'd certainly give my life rather than take that of someone not in the fight.
     
  17. Charlie B

    Charlie B Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    In a defensive weapon, "stopping power" doesn't necessarily have to equate to "killing power". Any round can impose a painfully traumatic wound without fatal penetration and may be an effective deterrent that I can live with. Pitching five or eight - 90 to 140 grain shots at roughly a thousand feet-per-second, in ten seconds or so, are going to have some disaster potential whether they are solid or hollow-point.

    The likelihood of stopping a human or animal attack (assuming accurate shot placement) is the major concern. "Knockdown power" and "one shot stop" should not be in the same conversation as handgun ammunition. For success, you need to get at least one shot in the thoracic triangle to ensure effectiveness.

    That said, my most carried handgun is either my .38 snub or my P3AT – plenty of deterrence under normal circumstances.

    Modern loads in most calibers from .32 through .45 will penetrate soft tissue to 12 inches. Some calibers are better than others, but only marginally at close range (justifiable defensive distances). The only difference is the size (diameter) of the wound track and the amount of shock (force) inflicted. Heavy layers of clothing can prevent Jacket Hollow Points (JHP) from expanding.

    As Forrest Gump said, "You never know what you’re going to get."

    In the end - It’s all about placement.
     
  18. alan85

    alan85 Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    0
    meh.

    This sounds like someones last words right before they die from a pocket pistol.
     
  19. saniterra

    saniterra Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,560
    Likes Received:
    591
    I, too, have had an uncle killed by a single .22 bullet. He was shot exiting his car during a robbery. The bullet went into the top of his left shoulder, down through his heart and right lung and God know what else before exiting just above his right pelvic bone. He fought off the robbers, then dropped dead on the spot. For many years, the weapon of choice for Mossad operatives involved in wet work was the .22 version of Beretta 84, though perhaps the actual model was an 82. They were trained to shoot for the spine through the throat or the eye socket. Instant results. But I agree with the poster about the NAA mini being a sinus gun, though I would have called it an ear gun as it has better access to the brain. I have a very difficult time imagining a shooter becoming sufficiently proficient with a single action pistol with a barrel that short mounting an effective defense with it in circumstances other than of the old guy on the floor of the subway with the perp lying on top of him. There are a number of very small .380 autos out there that I expect would be, from a percentage of mechanical failure to failure to hit just the right spot with the mini .22, much more effective. The mini is a well made little gun, interesting and fun to shoot, but I expect that a good knife would do you as much good, in that the effective range should be very similar.
     
  20. floater

    floater Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2011
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    4
    there's a fine line between being prepared and being paranoid