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Your gun is not big enough...

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by watchcollector1968, Nov 13, 2010.

  1. CenterMass

    CenterMass Loaded Pockets

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    Sorry to hijack this thread like this. Thats reading alot into the thread to think I advocate adhock execution. Again, the only thing I would be concerned with is eliminating the threat. And that means, as you said, shoot until the threat ceases. If you mean shooting in the arm or leg or whatever, then thats goes against every class, book and video Ive seen or taken. Most every instructor I know will tell you eliminating the threat means shoot him until theres no question the guy cant shoot back then get the Hell out of there. I know theres a trend lately that practicing the "Failure Drill" is wrong but, again, thats foolhardiness in my opinion. If someone pulls a gun on me, that means that person means to take my life. I will stop him by any means I can to get out of that situation.

    Bottom line, Id much rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6. Sorry again for the thread hijack. Back on topic, I think those NAA revolvers are neat.
     
  2. Wolvee

    Wolvee Loaded Pockets

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    No, I do not mean to imply in any way, to try and shoot at an arm or limb and I don't know how you could assume that is what I said or meant. In my response to you, I only focused on your post and illogical thought of their death is the only result in if "You are provoked." Legally, that is a foolish and irresponsible thing to stay. And if that is how you go through your day, you are sure to be judged by 12. If a BG's death is the result of shooting till the threat ceases, then so be it, but you can not say your "Not concerned with stopping them". You are implying that stopping your provocateur isn't your mission, killing is. That's where my analogy's fodder is from.
     
  3. Skipperbrown

    Skipperbrown Loaded Pockets

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    I won't carry a .22 for self defense because I don't think it has much in the way of stopping power. On the other hand, I would sure do everything in my power to avoid being shot by a .22.
     
  4. CenterMass

    CenterMass Loaded Pockets

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    Youre reading ALLLOOOTTTT into what I said but Ill leave it at that. But, for the sake of civility, Im gonna walk away from this post. Again, sorry for any hijacking.
     
  5. dmattaponi

    dmattaponi Loaded Pockets

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    Watchcollector 1968,

    Yes, I should have been more specific. The guns that I mentioned trying were all semi-autos. A small revolver like NAA would be a good reliable choice, I'm sure.
     
  6. 70dart

    70dart Loaded Pockets

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    I carry a NAA Mini Magnum every day but only as a last ditch backup to a larger caliber weapon, usually a 9mm or .45, because of a very personal experience involving my Dad.

    Back in 1973(I was 8 years old at the time) my Dad worked at a convience store in a really bad part of town(Ft. Worth Texas). One day a man and woman walked in, grabbed some beer and a loaf of bread, walked up to to my Dad and placed the barrell of a 4 inch .22LR revolver against his chest and pulled the trigger. The bullet was deflected away from his heart by the breast bone and instead pierced his right lung. Fortunately, my dad lived but the part of his story that I most remember is that when he was shot he laid down only to 'play dead' so he wouldn't be shot again. After the couple fled the scene, he got back up and called the police. The shooter was never caught(for that crime, anyway)

    I can still remember seeing my dad in the hospital later that day walking down the hall in gown and slippers with a tube sticking out of his right side draining into a little canister he carried with him.

    I realize that the .22LR and Mag are unpredictable calibers could just have easily killed my Dad but the thought of what might have happened if the creep had been armed with a larger caliber such as a .380, 9mm or .45 was a direct influence on my decision to go with a larger caliber as my primary carry. I love my little NAA mini and would carry it alone if I had no other choice but so far haven't been in a situation where I would have to yet.

    Robert
     
  7. dennisgibson

    dennisgibson Empty Pockets

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    What I hear watchcollector1968 saying is that you can stick a NAA mini (or equivalent) in your pocket like your wallet and just walk out the door. If I'm running to the store for milk, I don't want to have to gear up as a weapon system. Regardless of what the range commandos or gun rag experts say, convenience is a valid consideration.
     
  8. rabidchicken

    rabidchicken Loaded Pockets

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    Exactly. I regularly carry an LCP. When the weather is cooler I will carry a CZ RAMI 9mm IWB or a USP 45 in a versipack. As for the 22s, there are so many more reliable and larger caliber autos out there that are the same size or smaller than comparable 22s. I haven't met any 22 autos I would trust my life on and only one brand of 22 ammo I would trust.
     
  9. watchcollector1968

    watchcollector1968 Loaded Pockets

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    Very well put, thank you!
     
  10. jwhite75

    jwhite75 Loaded Pockets

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    Well I was one of the people who quoted Clint Smith...mainly because I find it anecdotal and funny in a way. I wasnt really meaning to flame you or your choice of weaponry I probably should have elaborated on my thinking a little more in the first post instead of defending it in my second. The NAA mini revolvers are a vey well made gun, as far as I can tell. I certainly would not hesitate to use it to defend myself or others if it is what I had on me. I do still stand by my reasoning, that if you are going to eliminate the use of one pocket for a gun, it should be something like a J-frame or pocket .380 etc. The .22 caliber, in WMR or LR has done its share of killing, and will continue to do so. It really is about personal choice and how seriously you look at the possiblity of a threat in the outside world. I have owrked as a probation or parole officer most of my adult life. Cops send the bad guy to prison...I send them BACK. I am a very disliked person in some instances. I have had to put somebody on the ground at gunpoint in a well traveled retail establishment while doing my shopping. A young man was drunk and high and felt that I had been to stern while enforcing the rules on him. He decided he was going to cut on me with a large knife. I was very happy that I had my Glock 23, and not a mouse gun. Cops deal with good AND bad people, I deal with ALL bad people. I know the possibilty of threats out there. I know who is walking down the street and fixing my food in a restaurant or landscaping my yard or trimming my trees. I accept it as the world I live in, but refuse to be a victim. I dont go looking for a gun fight, but I intend to put up one heck of a defense against it if I have no choice.

    Your NAA is an excellent little gun, I am sure it serves you well. It just is not an acceptable primary weapon for me. It makes an excellent deep concealment weapon as a BUG, or even third gun. I wish nothing but good luck and distance from evil in the world for you. Thanks for your opinion, and little rant. They do make us all feel better from time to time.
     
  11. dmattaponi

    dmattaponi Loaded Pockets

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    An Airweight S&W like the 642 works very well in this regard too. I can carry one even in sweats and pajamas. Put it in a Mika pocket holster and you good to go. No "gearing" up necessary.
     
  12. Narcosynthesis

    Narcosynthesis Loaded Pockets

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    I guess the only answer to this thread is 'everybody's different'

    The only difference is the dedication seen towards the gun - some feel that there is a time where it just isn't practical for them to carry, so can opt for something smaller to make do, some feel that the larger weapon is necessary, so will make the space for carry whatever the situation. Hell, there are even people who are happy without carrying at all...

    Fair play to all of you, it is down to an individual to look at their options and figure out the most appropriate, as everyone has a different outlook and system to life, good or bad...
     
  13. JonSidneyB
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    JonSidneyB Uber Prepared
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    Give this a try, if it does not work for you well it does not work. Try one of the light weight centennials like a 442 or 642 or one of the scandium models. Drop it in your pocket and see how it rides. They try it with a hip grip, the ultimate in convenience.

    I think it is better in a front pocket then a small auto for a couple of reasons. I think it conceals better because it is rounder when in a pocket. It creates a little bulge but being rounded it could be a handkerchief. The flat sides of a Guardian I tried was easier to see it for what it is, at least on me.

    The next reason the hook shaped grip to me is easier to access out of a pocket. With a hip grip in place I can't think of anything on a belt that hides better though it is a tiny bit slower to draw.

    The weight is next to nothing and I don't think you will notice it.
     
  14. seeker_two

    seeker_two Loaded Pockets

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    If bigger is what you're looking for, you could carry a Bond Arms Derringer.....

    http://www.bondarms.com/ifirearms.php

    Think of the .410 version as a Ruger LCP that fires three-round bursts....
     
  15. JonSidneyB
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    JonSidneyB Uber Prepared
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    It is quite a bit heavier than a J-Frame airweight.
     
  16. twinboysdad

    twinboysdad Loaded Pockets

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    a LEO officer just said that a .45 center mass did not stop a BG for 10 rounds and clearing a MF in his gun. Unless you have a shotgun or rifle, no handgun round is a stopper. Some work better than others but 1 shot stop is a myth
     
  17. LivingUpNorth

    LivingUpNorth Loaded Pockets

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    A one stop shot is not a myth if you can take out their central nervous system. Center mass is an easier target though, one which almost all of us are trained to hit. Even shotgun rounds and rifle rounds can be survivable. Once again, the caliber argument could go on forever. Just carry whatever you want.
     
  18. Tracy

    Tracy Loaded Pockets

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    Just my 2 cents, but I read into it exactly what Wolvee did. Here is what you said: "Very true but there is a difference. If someone has provoked me to the point to where I fear for my life enough to draw a weapon on them to defend myself, Im not worried about trying to stop them."

    No offense, but if I were you I would delete that statement and ask a mod to delete all references to it, because if you are ever in a situation where you have to defend yourself with a gun, any DA worth his salt will find that statement, and when he does, he will almost certainly convince the jury that the main point you were making was "provoked to draw my weapon" and "not worried about trying to stop them". Anybody can see the line of reasoning that suggests that, if you have gotten beyond wanting to stop the guy, it follows that you are so provoked that you want to kill him. That, my friend, is no longer a justifiable homicide; it is what is legally referred to as 2nd degree murder. Whether you meant it that way or not, rest assured that a skilful lawyer will convince a jury that you did.
     
  19. Tracy

    Tracy Loaded Pockets

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    Just a comment that many are missing about the .22 mini revolvers. I have one, and it is a super high quality, reliable little revolver. However, it has two problems as a defensive weapon.
    First, it is not really shootable. I have the .22 LR version; the Magnum frame has larger grips and is therefore more usable, but for me, the LR frame is just too small. The only way I can bring it to bear reliably and quickly is the sideways "ghetto" hold. That is OK, because it is a sinus cavity gun anyway. Back to that point in a moment.
    I have one of the fold-up clip grips, and there are also fixed grips that are large enough to make it more shootable. But those grips make it as bulky as a small .380, which is a much better stopper.

    The second problem, and one most people don't understand, is power. I have chrono'd mine with a variety of ammo, and have also chrono'd a friend's .22 Magnum version. I'm here to tell you, it is not in the class, power-wise, with a .25 Auto. Nor is it in the class with a 3" barreled .22. It is in the class with a pellet rifle, except that the pellet rifle is far more shootable. You simply would not believe how badly a sub-2" barrel impacts the performance of .22 LR and especially .22 Magnum. Let me put it this way: if you are gonna carry one, you might as well go ahead and get the .22 Short only version, because .22 Short velocity not only holds up better than LR and Magnum to the shorter barrel, velocity of the Short is similar to the larger cartridges, due to the lighter bullet.
    The thing is, there is no "stopping power" per se with a sub 2" .22; there is only penetrative power, and precious little of that. It is like stabbing your attacker with an awl, and is best employed at similar ranges. That is what I meant by "sinus cavity gun". If you have to pull it, you had better pray that your attacker will be scared away by the sight of it (actually, the same is true of any other gun). If he continues the attack, the best place to shoot him is right in the nose, angling upwards into the sinus cavities. Then run for your life as he is hopefully disoriented by the blood flooding his sinuses. You may get lucky and achieve penetration into the brain, but don't count on it.
    Meanwhile, getting the shot off (rather than having the gun taken away from you) took some hth fighting skills.
    The technique is similar to using a knife. And a knife is even easier to conceal, doesn't run out of ammo, and is arguably more effective if skilfully wielded.
    Personally, I don't like either of those choices. I would much rather have a stout ironwood walking stick. In my opinion, it is way more effective, easier to use, and with far fewer restrictions and legal ramifications.
    BTW, my comments about mini-revolvers definitely don't apply to a small-frame revolver in .22 Magnum or even .22 LR with a 3" or longer barrel. With the right ammo, a 3" barreled .22 Magnum is probably as effective as a .38 snubby, as a defensive piece.
     
  20. RGNY

    RGNY Empty Pockets

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    and not to add weight to any side, but as an anecdote:

    the person who made me want to be a cop in the first place was my neighbor growing up. he was retired NYPD. the only thing he ever carried off duty was a .22 Beretta. his -opinion- was that "no one wants to be shot at, and it always looks bigger pointed at you".

    fwiw....