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Would like some opinions

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by mrtwohands, Sep 28, 2017.

  1. mrtwohands

    mrtwohands Loaded Pockets

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    I have been thinking about this for a while now off and on. I've always wanted a Daniel Defense or BCM rifle for years but would never actually spend the money on one for whatever reason at the time.

    Well, now I am at the point were I want to buy a top tier rifle and I'm willing to part with some other guns to make it happen. My PSA rifle and Sig P320. Nothing about either about either one. Just wanting to start getting into having quality over quantity. If that makes sense.

    Considering the DDM4 V7 LW or the BCM Recce 16 KMR LW. Both seem to be roughly about the same in specs with each a touch better in different areas. It would really come down to personal preference.

    Anyways, my question is what would y'all do. Would sell those both guns to get the rifle you always wanted or just be happy with you have? I'm no professional. Just something I have wanted for a really long time.
     
    #1 mrtwohands, Sep 28, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
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  2. 9x19

    9x19 Loaded Pockets

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    Life is too short to own guns (or knives) you really don't like. :D
     
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  3. HVACn00b

    HVACn00b Loaded Pockets

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    Buy both keep both.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  4. les snyder

    les snyder Loaded Pockets

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    I've been shooting USPSA pistol and rifle competition (3 gun) since the early 80s, and have had an opportunity to shoot a lot of really nice high end firearms... JP and Knights Armament rifles, my SBR has a LMT Mk18 upper as well as custom pistols of many fine craftsmen...

    I am now financially able to buy what I want, but still opt to build my competition firearms myself... if the receiver and upper are 7075-T6 forgings with mil-spec hard coat anodizing, a Carpenter 158 bolt with reliability upgrade that has been magnifluxed and shot with proof load, in a shrouded carrier, a good aftermarket trigger, and good glass the rest is window dressing...

    you appear to have a stainless PSA barrel, with a KeyMod full float skinny fore end...if you don't have a good trigger, borrow one and put a good scope on top... shoot some 69grain Sierra Match Kings from a reputable manufacturer and see what kind of group you get at 100m...then make up your mind... YMMV
     
    Last edited by les snyder, Oct 2, 2017
    #4 les snyder, Sep 29, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017
  5. troutster52

    troutster52 Loaded Pockets

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    Not to be a jerk, but what is a DD or BCM going to give you that the PSA won't? If you just want to get it because you want it, thats a good enough reason, but if thats the case, I don't see the need to get rid of the others. Just my .02.
     
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  6. Goob469

    Goob469 Loaded Pockets

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    My dad all ways told me, "you buy guns, you don't sell them." And that is usually followed by, "if you know how many guns you have, you don't have enough."

    But, I agree with @trotster52, the PSA will do the same thing the DD or BCM is going to do. Granted a DD or BCM might do it a little more accurately or a little smother and etc... I have a DD and don't get me wrong it's a :censored: nice gun but, at the end of the day it goes bang just like my DPMS and the AR I built with a Anderson lower and AR Stoner upper. But, it's nice to have nice things and it's nice to enjoy those nice things.

    Life is to short and you can't take it with you when you die - keep your current guns, save up your pennies and buy a new DD or BCM.
     
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  7. Wishoot

    Wishoot Loaded Pockets

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    I'm in the minority when it comes to guns.... If I don't shoot it or enjoy it that much, it's up for sale or trade.
     
  8. yar1182

    yar1182 Loaded Pockets

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    Sorry if this sounds condescending, but having a "Tier 1" rifle is mostly internet or twitch cred. There is maybe something to be said about the "materials, testing, and QC" marketing jibber jabber if you carry a rifle for your profession and your department, branch of service or other entity restricts you from building up, or wrenching together whatever you have handy. Likewise if you are overall less serious about shooting to be able to build up a base rifle or know better.

    I too am a competitive 3 gunner and although I have some nice rifles (JP's, Adcor, Seekins) I would not have an issue running a PSA or whatever base gun I built up. As Les mentioned and I agree the important $#!+ to have is quality optics, and ammo. I would keep the PSA and put $1500-$2000 into a scope and a heavy bullet. I personally like a Hornady or PRVI 75gr BTHP in the 2650+ fps flavor. While I do like the SMK's and Berger's, the Hornady's and PRVI's are less expensive and easier to source. Many of us have pretty much standardized on the same or similar enough 24.5gr TAC powder behind a 75gr BTHP bullet for LR ammo and whatever bulk 55gr FMJ (Hornady 22c) for the under 100 yard hoser stuff using the same powder charge. When reloading a batch of ammo all we do with substitute a different bullet. I myself don't even need to touch my seating die.

    Reclaim that valuable space in your safe and sell off whatever gun(s) that you don't shoot or appreciate to fund a nice scope. Depending on your eyesight and wallet a 1-4, 1-6, or 1-8 variable power SFP "2nd focal plane" is my strong recommendation. Don't make the mistake of getting a FFP unless you have specific need for it. A SFP optic will be lighter, less expensive, and easier to shoot accurately due to the better reticle at max magnification. The reticle at max magnification will be the thin precise "cross hairs" ideal for hitting stuff. A FFP the reticle will enlarge as you increase magnification. Meaning at max magnification you have fat wide lines for aiming reference more apply called a "cross noodle". Unless you somehow need to range targets with your reticle and have taken the time and effort to learn how there is not much advantage of a FFP. Since I'm not a sniper or DM I would either range targets at max magnification, or use the several $100's saved on a inexpensive laser range finder, chronograph, and cell phone ballistic calculator of choice. After you handle the critical necessary of the optic then invest in a dillon progressive press and start reloading your own ammo. Both of these will involve a considerable investment in money and learning but it is still one of the better paths in becoming a better rifle shooter.

    The Vortex Razor HD 1-6 is a scope I can recommend at $1400 amazon prime that I can assure you will not be unhappy with. If you can swing that or something comparable you would of done well for yourself. Granted the top tier optics such as Hensolt, USO, S&B are amazing and cred worth as far as gear goes among serious shooters but an solid intermediary purchase would likely be wiser for you until you get really squared away.

    When getting a reloader do yourself a favor and buy a Dillon. Every person who went with a Lee or anything else eventually regretted it and moved to a dillon. That is why there are so many used lee presses on the market. For rifle the 1050 is going to be the least labor intensive with the built in primer pocket swager. Loading rifle cartridges can be a chore with all the case prep - cleaning, lubing, sizing, trimming, swagging, then 2nd cleaning before you even get to the loading part. If you are going to do only one or two rifle and or pistol cartridges the extra expense of the 1050 will more than pay for itself many times over in the time and labor savings. In fact if at all possible just get the 1050 its pretty much what every reloader that mainly loads rifle wishes he did the first time. Most of us for the initial cost savings and ideal that we were going to load many different rifle and pistol calibers opted for a 550 or 650 which are both capable machines. I am not exaggerating the easier handle stroke of the 1050 and not having to do a separate primer pocket prep such as swagging will save you wear and tear on your elbow and fingers and literally hours on each batch of ammo you run. You can certainly buy all your ammo but you will not learn as much about your firearms potential and the practical understanding of all the variables regarding ammunition. That is of course if you put in the work and develop yourself as a shooter in both knowledge, technique, and experience. The gun is just a tool, the shooter is the weapon.

    As far as your PSA, if I were to switch out the flash suppressor for a muzzle brake and a fixed stock I would not have any problem rocking it. You certainly can also put a nice trigger such as a hipperfire. I've got high end triggers in all my firearms but my primary competitive AR has a mil spec trigger that I tuned and resprung. I found that a nice trigger on a pistol has much more influence on my shooting that rifle or shotgun. The AR and shotguns in general I don't feel the need to drop $200 on a trigger. I'll leave it at that as I certainly typed a novel of a reply.
     
    Last edited by yar1182, Oct 31, 2017
    #8 yar1182, Oct 31, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  9. b.s.

    b.s. Loaded Pockets

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    Between the two options you gave us, I'd sell the guns and buy your new rifle.

    As said earlier, life is too short to own things that don't bring you joy.

    If the new DDM or BCM will get you shooting more, or if it will help you enjoy your hobby, then do it. Otherwise there's no point in keeping those things around.

    And DDM all the way...
     
  10. sarxsvt

    sarxsvt Loaded Pockets

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    I have a DDM V11 Pro, DD5V1 and a BCM 16" SS410 Upper on a Battle Arms Development billet lower that I built. All three are great guns. I was at the exact same place you are several years ago. I had lots of serviceable firearms. Rock Rivers, PSA builds etc. Every time I bought a cheaper firearm, I always wondered if I would have been happier not making a cost conscious choice. After converting 50+ guns into 20ish, I can fully say the answer for me was, Yes.

    I made a conscious choice to convert and consolidate to fewer quality platforms and calibers. I decided I was settled on .22, 9mm, 5.56 and 7.62. I do have an unfortunate fondness for 1911s but I only kept my Springfield TRP and bought a Wilson X-tac in the downsizing as my 'strays' from 9mm. Although honestly I wish I had bought the Wilson in 9mm almost everyday. I'm sure Ill end up with another one in tax refund season in 9mm. I've mostly converted to CZ's and Glocks for pistols. Just ordered a Wilson AR9G to run glock mags in a Carbine as well. Have a JP rifle for 3-gun and use the BCM for a defensive rifle. I honestly haven't shot either of the Daniels rifles enough yet to say whether or not I prefer them.

    That being said, the receiver itself on AR's in particular is just a shell. Maybe the tolerances are a bit better, but the quality is as good as the internal components you used. If you've shot enough that you feel like you know what you want, then I would 100% say sell the things and buy what you want.

    Between those two rifles, I would find myself putting a new trigger in either. I've been ruined by Geissele and I also like the flat bow feel. Hiperfire 24c is sweet for competition as well.

    I 100% agree with Yar above that the honest practical answer is most people would benefit from better optics than better rifle components, but its a difficult decision to make. I'm not drinking the Vortex kool-aid but the Razor he suggested is a nice scope. I'm still preferential to Nightforce. Also you can get a good deal on Leupold Mark4's on a closeout in the civilian market. It's another very nice scope at a lowerish price point. ($700-1200)

    TLDR version; Do what you think will make you shoot more and make you happy. When I was in your position, I sold off and converted to weapons I wanted and I find that had made me far happier than I was. However that may not be the best decision for everyone.
     
  11. yar1182

    yar1182 Loaded Pockets

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    @sarxsvt I myself am more a Trijicon Accupoint guy as I have several on various rifles but between the price drop of the razor hd 1-6 or the industry discount if it applies I have to recommend it over the various Accupoints. On my primary I am running a USO 1-8.

    While I like several of the offerings from Nightforce I don't believe they have a 1-6 or 1-8 yet. While 1-4 is sufficient if you have good vision, I am not so blessed so the extra magnification pays off. Also our local 3 gun matches go out mid 400's if not 500 yards on MGM's.
    While I do not hate the mark 4 I find the 1.5x low end not ideal. If at all possible I would want a true 1x or reasonably close enough my eyes don't notice (1.1 -1.25 maybe).

    Then there is the reticle. The Vortex Razor HD Gen II 1-6x24 at 1x is very usable for the hosing with the illumined red dot, which i have to say I find I prefer over the Accupoint. Vortex claims it's a true 1x and to my eyes it very well could be. If I remember correctly Vortex is using the same lens manufacturer as Nighforce which is Hoya in Japan. It's not a huge secret that almost all rifle optic manufacturers buy there optical lens from a lens manufacturer. I don't believe anyone ever made their own glass which includes Nikon believe it or not, I'm not certain what is considered the current best Japanese or Asian Lens manufacturer but Gale McMillian makes several references to "Light" in Japan in this reference here. http://yarchive.net/gun/scope/makers.html

    I am not certain but I believe Schott AG which is a owned by Zeiss is currently making the lens for S&B & USO as well. It's funny to hear the various optic manufacturer talk about it. Big secret who uses who for lens or what their special prescription (recipe for what specific glass uses, polishing, grinding process, and coatings). Real Coke vs Pepsi type stuff. Anyway I spent better part of 10 shot shows eyeballing everyone's glass and looking at what my squad mates were running at matches. I ended up with the US Optics SR-8C 1-8x24 Mil Dot with the rare Blue Dot. There is quite the story on how it found its way on my rifle but it's long so I'll save it for another post. People come find me at matches to eyeball it.

    Not discounting your recommendations, they are all valid. I don't post often but I tend to go overboard. While I can get geeky on optics the "right" choice for each shooter is a matter of preference, budget, and intended usage. Some parts of the country are so heavily forested that their typical long shot for 3 gun is less than 200. In that case most could just run a red dot. In the wide open deserts where I hose they like to stretch things out because 3 gun is supposed to be difficult right.

     
  12. sarxsvt

    sarxsvt Loaded Pockets

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    Sorry my recommendations were more for general use than competition shooting.

    Everyone's vision is different I agree. Pass the same two scopes around to three people and I would be surprised if any two opinions match from what I can tell. To me the NXS glass is far brighter than all the Razors I've seen but I'm comparing on distance targets. Outside of the NXS the SHV is also nice if not a touch heavy. I would say the SHV is probably my favorite general use magnified scope in that price range. S&B doesn't work great for me. My Father is shooting a S&B PMII 5-45x on his Georgia Precision BR build. I'm actually not particularly fond of it.

    I've only had a chance to look through Accupoint's in stores. Can't make any judgement there, but I love RMR's =)

    I use a SR8C as well for competition =) I switched about 1.5 years ago, was using a Meopta 1-6x before that. Listened to Jason Kyle on a podcast, can't remember if it was Precision Rifle or AR-15, but decided I wanted to try a USO after that and didn't look back. We shoot anything from 200-600 here. Just depends on what they feel like.

    I'll probably put the Meopta on the PCC when I get it. Those courses generally stay under 100 yards. If I don't like that, I'll probably just use a MRO.
     
    #12 sarxsvt, Nov 4, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017
  13. yar1182

    yar1182 Loaded Pockets

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    I should clarify, just because two optics vendors buy their lens from the same lens factory that does not mean it is the same lens.
    the two vendors may differ in the various grinding, polishing, coatings, etc and still come in at the same MSRP. Also consider the wizardry that produces more accurate color by eliminating stray light such as what Schott/Zeiss are known for has no bearing on helping the shooter with precision application of lead, and a marginally debatable aid in tracking, identifying, reading wind or other environmental variables or so people I respect say. It does look brighter to most peoples eyes but supposedly its mostly just more realistic. Still If your dropping several grand on a scope it's makes you feel good when people ogle and awe about how nice your gear is. Motivates you to do your part and not go "C.H.S."on your run if you're a 3 gunner. I suppose someone who does 4 legged or 2 legged rodent control gets to see his red mist in full 4k.
    .
     
  14. les snyder

    les snyder Loaded Pockets

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    my "frankengun" used for multi gun is an Armalite Eagle lower, with RRA NM trigger, RRA 16" mid upper with MI full float fore end, Miculek comp....it uses an A1 stock with a Trijicon 4x32 TA31F ACOG.... the ACOG is not really a 3 gun scope, but he stadia lines come in really handy for wind hold off at 415m... we don't get to shoot much past 200m here in Florida, so the longer shots at Ft Benning are often challenging...my best stage finish at FB3G was a 13th on the sniper stage in 2009 with 55grain m193.... with a 69SMK load from Outback, it will hold about 3/4" at 100m... my current game gun is an AR9 for the new division of PCC...pistol caliber carbine... and for 70 year old eyes and knees, a welcome change... YMMV
     
  15. Bradg79

    Bradg79 Empty Pockets

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    I have a couple of BCM rifles and I have built several PSA rifles over the years. The difference is daylight and dark, get you a good quality rifle and be happy.

    And to make it a little easier, try buying the lower now and the upper when funds better allow it.
     
  16. mrtwohands

    mrtwohands Loaded Pockets

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    I have actually considered this a few times. I'm hoping I can find a deal on one during black Friday.
     
  17. steviesterno

    steviesterno Loaded Pockets

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    I own both, as I too was a pretty serious 3 gunner. just the barrel in my game gun is something like $800 and the rest of the build is 100% custom to me, part by part. it shoots a little better than the PSA I keep in the truck, but not much.

    I would advise you NOT to sell right now. the market is soft, I can get a brand new PSA for like $400 so I would give you $250 for your right now. I advise you to really think about what parts you don't like or why you want to upgrade. The difference in accuracy and shoot ability came for my evolution of shooting in phases

    FF tube. without it you can't put pressure anywhere
    good trigger. only as steady as that lets you be
    glass. you can't hit what you can't see. I love trijicon and own a number of them, but other brands are good, too. you do get what you pay for here.
    barrel/ammo combo. I use a 1/8 and that lets me shoot 55gn or the heavy stuff. I like hornady 75 grain match stuff. you will never get the most out of your combo if you run bulk pack garbage.

    everything else is preference. want a different stock? buy one. want a different tube? buy one. I would advise you to keep what you have an either build a new one to your desire as you have money or fix up the one you have part by part.

    I spent years making my rifle exactly right for me and my use. you may hate it. i don't care. it's mine. I picked up parts as I could, but I wouldn't do anything differently.