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When is ripping off okay?

Discussion in 'General EDC Discussion' started by LivingUpNorth, Apr 13, 2014.

  1. Tesla

    Tesla Loaded Pockets

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    I get what you mean, but if your pouch is a status symbol, you've got other issues. I don't see any status to wannabe military knockoffs like Skinth and Maxped (or any of a hundred others you could add). Do they have utility and design refinements? Sure, but not status--that would be reserved for Gucci or something similar--maybe.
     
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  2. Fabregas485
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    Fabregas485 Loaded Pockets

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    If you must copy something, at least try improve the design.
     
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  3. hunter s gatherer
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    hunter s gatherer EDC Junkie!!!

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    A common phenom in commerce and competition. One example I commonly see is car companies that take elements of design from one company and apply it to there own. It doesn't take long for say a big mouth grill design from Audi to migrate to Hyundai.
     
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  4. FL Woods Bum
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    FL Woods Bum Your Grace!

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    If you pay attention to your history at all, pouches were around well before the U.S. Military, so nobody's ripping them off. The idea of a pouch is not a rip-off. To me, when you take an obvious swing at someone's original designs then that is a rip-off. That being said, and as I said before, I don't shop with Maxpedition because of the owners behavior in this forum and toward it's members. How he conducts his business by making products that look like "one offs" from another company is just a bi-product of a lack of originality. Skinth is far from the first company that Maxpedition has been accused of mimicking products from.
     
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  5. FL Woods Bum
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    FL Woods Bum Your Grace!

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    I think this is an interesting comment, however I think that the only people affected by it are those who think that gear gives them some sort of status to begin with. I have never been that kind of person. My concerns related to rip-offs are more related to supporting the small business owners and the innovators who bring new designs to the market. They should be able to enjoy the fruits of their labors without some company stealing their design to copy it in their sweat shop overseas to sell it for less and to exploit people (their workers) in the process.
     
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  6. FL Woods Bum
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    FL Woods Bum Your Grace!

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    BTW, if I seem passionate about this, I apologize. I have (for 20+ years) watched innovation get stifled in the Software industry because big companies blatantly steal a small company's ideas and then sell it for pennies on the dollar so that innovative company ends up going out of business. People have no idea how much sooner we would have had tablets, smart phones, etc.. if they weren't so worried about saving a few bucks and thus supporting those who ripped off someone else. Big company's don't innovate folks.. They make their money on mass producing the same item for as long as they can. Innovation is the enemy of their profit margins because it means retooling, marking efforts, and training. ;)

    If you want innovation, then support the little guys... if you want the same old stuff made cheaper and cheaper, support the big guys.
     
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  7. hunter s gatherer
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    hunter s gatherer EDC Junkie!!!

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    Passion is a good thing generally (unless it's an unwanted advance). Just made me think of Walmart. Moving to a remote corner of the SW. The "town" only has one store with about 3 food groups: pop, candy, and cigarettes. You gotta travel 45 mins to get to a real shopping district. So what did I notice? The first thing a shopper coming in from the hinterlands encounters is a Walmart on the edge of town. Crafty on Wally's part.
     
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  8. rsitter

    rsitter EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    i didn't mean just for pouches...i meant for anything.


    it may not be you, but there are a lot of people that believe that their gear gives them some sort of status. on this forum. there are a lot of people who buy something because they think others will like them for it. its not just in this 'world' either, in anything. clothes, cars, houses, tv's, anything. its not worth arguing over, because its just plain true. i know not for you, but for some.
    in these 'clone' 'ripoff' debates in the past, some of the most passionate people say 'i hate hinderer clones, i saved up and bought the real thing, so everyone else should too'. why should everyone else? maybe they think paying 400 dollars for a knife is stupid. what does anyone else care?

    as far as hurting the manufacturer, i think its a terrible thing that their idea gets stolen and others make money off of it. but this is how it is, in anything. this is why we have patents and trademarks. if someone's breaking a patent law, then they'll pay for it....if not, then whats the problem?

    anyone who purchases a clone who is passionate about the product, will likely end up getting the real thing eventually. anyone who isn't, probably wasn't going to fork out the money anyway. there's no money lost.

    tell me, with a straight face, that half of the stuff in the 'show me your edc' thread isn't posted just for 'likes'. im not saying this is bad, it is what it is. its a status symbol.
     
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  9. FL Woods Bum
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    It's funny you ask that. I only recently started posting my EDC items in their own thread. Previously I had refrained from it because I didn't want to go the whole "look at my stuff" route. I started the thread that I did a few days ago (which is just my pockets btw) so I can keep track of how my pocket EDC evolves after being around you crazy people. Now, do I think it's cool to discuss the stuff in my EDC when folks ask? Of course, but that's part of why I am here. I like to share with others my ideas related to EDC and to get ideas from them. I long ago stopped caring about what others thought of me. Hopefully my previous posts have given people that impression as well. If people never "like" another thing I post, I guarantee you will still see me posting. :p

    With all that said about me... I hear you loud and clear regarding the other stuff.
     
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  10. rsitter

    rsitter EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    i just liked all your pictures in your thread :D
    because i like your stuff, not because of what name is on it, or how rare it is.... i just see it as well thought out stuff. most of the 'really nice stuff' here, i 'like' because of the picture composition, there are some really great photographers here....mostly i dont give a poo about their stuff, just their pictures. like diggs for example, i usually dont like the content of his pictures, but his pictures themselves might be my favorite on the forum.
     
  11. cowsmilk

    cowsmilk EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    Like.....a Parker jotter???;)
     
  12. DavyJ

    DavyJ Loaded Pockets

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    I guess the question really is whether big companies should hijack the designs of small companies. However, I think the question is moot. Boutique outlets cater to a very specific and limited demographic. They tend to have high production values. They also tend to have much lower production volumes. A high volume producer usually cuts quality in order to lower price and boost unit sales.

    There will always be a small cadre of enthusiasts that shop in the boutique marketplace, irrespective of designs being ripped and mass produced by less scrupulous companies.

    Who does Eric sell to? Walk-ins? Or people who do their research and maybe join sites like this? Would someone reading the reviews on here logically come to the conclusion that the MaxP versions are either as good as Skinth or as well-recommended?

    Fanboys are one thing. Discerning enthusiasts are a whole other thing. I think Eric's clientele lies firmly among the latter of these.
     
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  13. rsitter

    rsitter EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    a parker jotter is the only true status symbol known to man kind..... if you own one, you are too cool for school, and will automatically start 'trending' on twitter....whatever that means. :D
     
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  14. DavyJ

    DavyJ Loaded Pockets

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    Ooh, ooh, fight!
     
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  15. pipey

    pipey Loaded Pockets

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    I put my head down and wait for incoming ! Isnt it up to the individual as to what he buys/doesnt buy. I see what some peoples views are on here and they constantly preach dont buy off this company dont buy off that company. I have a few maxped bits i like what iv got but im not going to go to say to someone dont buy maxped stuff. I have had problems with certain 5.11 items and now refuse to buy these certain items again. Thats your choice dont force it on others. Other people havent had those probs and will carry on getting them thats their right. I hate being preached to on who i can and cant buy gear etc from. People who do this are akin to the people who are constantly in my local town trying to engage me in religious conversations. Im not religious never have been but you believe in it and thats fine by me each to his own. With this in mind i understand many on here hate maxped for one reason or another but please dont preach to everyone that they shouldnt buy maxped or any other manufactures gear cos of your opinions. Last i heard freedom of speech is a right trying to force your beliefs/opinions on others isnt.some people on here will now probable slate me feel free doesnt bother me. Left facebook because it was just becoming a platform for abuse in many forms can do the same here as unlike some my life doesnt revolve round forums etc.thats my opinion for what its worth.
     
    Last edited by pipey, Apr 18, 2014
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  16. MTFatboy
    • GITD Manix 2XL Owner
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    I think this was a really good question. I personally have found myself on one hand defending Cold Steel for "ripping off" ideas on one thread while agreeing with comments made about a certain reviled bag manufacturer on another. Honestly, I don't think the use of another's ideas by itself is inherently good or bad--its how and why it's done that makes it so. It seems to me to be perfectly legal and ethical to "rip off" designs if one is:
    • making a product available to an otherwise unreachable market--especially replicating products that are neither copyrighted nor produced anymore,
    • embracing a revolutionary, possibly industry-changing idea while adding one's own unique refinements,
    • introducing fair and ethical competition where a monopoly would otherwise enable unreasonable pricing, especially concerning products that enhance health and wellness, or, of course
    • licensing a product when its demand far exceeds the designer's ability to produce.
    It seems to me that it is unethical, and often barely legal, to "rip off" designs in order to:
    • take credit for another's work to steal some of his or her profit,
    • stifle innovation to protect one's own market share, or
    • use one's brand equity and marketing success to sell essentially re-branded designs so rapidly that consumers will assume the rip-off is the original, again to protect one's market share.
    To the entrepreneur looking to put his ladle in the commonwealth pot, to the craftsman passionate about his craft looking to use what works and make it like no one else quite does, and to the crusader delivering the products people need at prices they can afford, I tip my hat. To the :devil: looking to seize any available profit, including that earned by someone else, I lift my kilt. Yep, it's official. I've gotta get a kilt, and I have to confess I won't be doing any of my research at any patent offices. I'll be looking for the features I need at a price I can afford -- so if anybody knows of any sleazy, underhanded, pattern-stealing kilt weasels I should avoid, please speak now or hold your peace.
     
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  17. landwire
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    I buy gear as a solution to a problem. Sometimes a copy is an adequate solution. Sometimes it is not. No matter how hard I try to make things black and white, there is always a gray area. The cost of black and white decision is sometimes a price I can't pay. It is easy to harp on a company such as maxped because there are alternative companies a person can shop from. It was ruled that Samsung copied from Apple. How many of you ditched your samsung phones because of it? If you harp against maxped and yet you kept your samsung phone or even upgraded, is that not hypocrisy?
     
  18. neginfluence04

    neginfluence04 Loaded Pockets

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    After reading all 19 pages I'm completely disgusted with the actions and the threats that the owner of Max made to a fellow Oklahoman. I was completely flabbergasted and at a lost for words after reading his response to an issue that seemed insignificant. I will never recommend Max to any fellow EDC'er, friend, or family member after seeing how they do business.

    wow
     
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  19. tr4022

    tr4022 Uber Prepared

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    rip-off: uncool. Homage/sampling: cool.

    Tod
     
  20. FL Woods Bum
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    FL Woods Bum Your Grace!

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    I only have one observation.

    I don't know how anyone can "force" their beliefs or opinions on anyone through the Internet. Strong views or opinions would be covered under the First Amendment, as would most of what you label as "trying to force your beliefs/opinions on others". The First Amendment is a two edged sword. It protects your ability to say what YOU want, but it also protects the ability for OTHERS to say what they want. It can be frustrating, but it's necessary to true freedom. I leave you with a great quote that has always stuck with me since I read it many years ago, I think it sums up what I am trying to say quite well.

    “The first duty of a man is to think for himself” ― José Martí
     
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