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Vehicile Tactics & some general thoughts

Discussion in 'Personal Security Devices & Self-Defense' started by mercop, Aug 29, 2009.

  1. mercop

    mercop Empty Pockets

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    Today I attended a Vehicle Tactics Course on by Bob Derosiers from Argive Defense System. I was there to kind of hang out, be a safety at times, chime in, and be the bad guy for several scenarios.


    There were no “new” shooters in the class. Everyone had previous training and was range safe. With 10 students in the class, we had age’s ranging from a 20 yr old with several attendees in their late 50’s. Many were prior military and a few had shot some IPSC and IDPA.


    Without getting into the specifics of the course here are some observations that I see over and over in firearms courses, especially during FOF training. We had airsofts for the good guys and props for the bad guys including airsofts, clubs, knives and box cutters.


    Students habitually walk right by or totally dismiss people with visible weapons in their hands like clubs and knives.


    If the student draws down on a attacker and things become static he usually begins to give verbal commands that are common to police such ask get down, cross you feet etc. While giving commands no students retreated to a better position of cover even when it was steps away.


    Once students get both hands on their gun they become glued there even if they are being attacked with a club or a knife. Not one student released his weak hand to defend himself. This at best promotes a mutual slaying.


    When both hands are glued to the gun the students only move straight back or straight forward.


    During the entire day, not one headshot was counted. The majority of rounds struck the hand/arm holding the weapon, and COM.


    During force on force no students reported closing one eye or contemplating which eye to shoot with.


    Using a t-shirts for a concealment garment is likely to end up in a fouled draw, especially if you need to draws one handed.


    You cannot open your door, pop your seatbelt, clear the seatbelt, get out of the car and draw you pistol in one move. At combat speed there is a very high screw up rate doing this drill.


    Shooters are good about not getting their gun caught up the seatbelt but usually end up getting the seatbelt caught on reaction side gear like cell phones, magazines and lights. They get about a foot away from the car and then yanked back in by the belt.


    Once students encounter and initial threat they sometimes scan left and right but seldom to the rear, once they verbally engage the threat the disregard the rear. I was able to walk up and execute two students while my partner was breaking in their car. This was in broad daylight.
    Just some thoughts that I hope provoke a discussion.
     
  2. islandson

    islandson Loaded Pockets

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    I believe you call it situational awareness, being aware of every thing in a complete 360 degree loop.

    Students frequently are struck with tunnel vision, aware of only what is in front of them.
    Perhaps an over reliance on thier partners to cover thier six (and nine and three).

    One statement you make is very interesting. The number of shots at the weapon wielding apendage, i am not aware the current training protocols call for wounding/disarming the assailant. I guess i'm old school, two rounds center mass, three if necessary.
     
  3. Warfighter

    Warfighter Empty Pockets

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    Excellent observations. Did you do any kind of after action debrief with the students? When I take my boys (17 & 14) out to the range we do more than just shoot. We work on weak hand, C&C, battle field pick ups, combat malfunctions, tactical reloads and some theories but to be honest there are things you pointed out we need to incorporate into our range time.

    This points out shooting is a diminishable skill and one needs to practice as much as possible.

    Thanks for the tips.
     
  4. Spydermonkey

    Spydermonkey Loaded Pockets

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    I thought these through and what I would do in an instant made me sick to my stomach. I guess that this is something to think about next time I go to the range for some practice time. ALOT to think about when I go to work later today. Thanks for the wake up call.

    :shocked:
     
  5. Clead

    Clead Loaded Pockets

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    Thanks George... good food for thought. When I went through Armoured Car training in May, we had an amazing instructor that addressed some of the deficiencies you mentioned. We were taught to a) always do a 360 scan when reloading and periodically while covering a subdued bad guy, b) move around while engaging a bad guy... i.e. go for better cover, or a better backstop (liability is big for us) and c) check hands of everyone in the vicinity and shout "GUN" or "KNIFE" if we see one. Challenge anyone holding an ambiguous or situationally-inappropriate item like a golf club. For me, headshots require aiming at "point-shoot" range, but I still try to throw some in there.
     
  6. MSCantrell

    MSCantrell Loaded Pockets

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    Man, that sounds like a blast!

    FASCINATING. On the one hand, you want to say, "No, surely not, I always notice everything!"... but on the other, nobody in public has ever asked me about a knife clipped obviously in a pocket, or even a fixed blade on belt. Not even places like the grocery store checkout line. I bet we DO miss a lot more than we like to believe.



    Now this I don't find as surprising, but it does make me wonder- any way to use this to your advantage? In terms of counting on the other guy to maintain a deathgrip on whatever he's holding? Any way to change the situation so that his asset (gun/knife/club/whatever) turns into a liability for him?


    If this is one of the lessons of the class that would be inappropriate to share, I understand, but... what's the solution? Point the gun out the open window? Get out, engage unarmed, and draw later?


    Love your unusual and eminently practical insights, George. Thanks!

    Mike
     
  7. WARFIST

    WARFIST Banned

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    very interesting read mercop and yeah its crazy none of the students even looked/moved around for better position/coverage i mean that should be instinct!
     
  8. mercop

    mercop Empty Pockets

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    Here are some pics I posted on my blog. http://mail.myptsmail.com/mercop/blog/?p=419

    As far as aiming for COM...the weapon is in front of COM!!!!!!!!! People don't aim the get the gun between them and the threat and pull the trigger.

    I would be happy to give my thoughts on one question a time on this stuff, just ask.

    And not to sound like a salesman, but because of lots of things that are left out during lots of training in favor of more whiz bang stuff and my overseas customers we will be launching MCS's Distance Learning portion of the website in OCT. We will be covering everything from exiting you vehicle to reloads. It will be $9.99 a month or $99.99 a year. There will be 3-5 new videos plus articles a month intended to be used as learning tools. No teasers, just information that is covered in our classes.
     
  9. snooky

    snooky Empty Pockets

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  10. protaganis

    protaganis Loaded Pockets

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    I've seen similar problems in training scenarios everywhere. We (a few of the coworkers and I) think its the static firearms training. Shooting at the range instills good stance and control techniques, but puts you in a tunnelvision mindset.
    I wish there were quite a few more readily accessible shoot houses for 360 degree threat and analysis scenarios.

    Remember, we fight like we train. So train well.
     
  11. mercop

    mercop Empty Pockets

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    Shoot houses are good but I prefer the FOF with the Airsoft. There is nothing like having actual people to defend against and shoot at.
     
  12. protaganis

    protaganis Loaded Pockets

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    We've been lucky enough to be able to use simunitions in some training, but I agree, airsoft - easy to find the same model weapon as you normally carry (boosts carry confidence) - real target reactions and interplay (practicing target that shoots back is an incredible motivator) - it's comparatively inexpensive to any comparable training tool - And lastly, it is fun (not that shoot houses aren't) but something that's entertaining will be done again and again voluntarily. Thus developing good habits and skills.

    I may well use some of your information to convince our managers to change some of our training regimes. You state it much better than I could and have it sound better the first time.

    Take Care.
     
  13. Mercury

    Mercury Empty Pockets

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    I've read somewhere (I would cite if I could remember the source) that it's a natural tendency to shoot at the weapon in an assailant's hand rather than a critical area.

    Two reasons:
    1. A person tends to perceive the gun/knife/club as the threat, and because of this, in high-stress situations, will reflexively try to neutralize what they perceive as the threat.

    2. A person tends to pay more attention to the gun/knife/club in hopes of responding to an attack, and since the hands tend to follow the eyes the person will shoot at the weapon.

    This obviously applies more to people that haven't had some sort of combatitive firearms training, but it was an interesting read.
     
  14. mercop

    mercop Empty Pockets

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    We don't see this during FOF so much with knives and sticks as we do with guns. The main reason for the guns/hands getting hit is because they are not contact distance weapons and are brought in at a horizontal plane between the shooter and the defender. Since they will are usually held between the belly button and upper chest (Center of Mass) they get hit. If it was silhouetted away from the body like a knife or a stick it would get hit very little.- George