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Unusual flashlight needs...request advice

Discussion in 'Flashlights & Other Illumination Devices' started by greenmountainbooks, Dec 15, 2019.

  1. greenmountainbooks

    greenmountainbooks Loaded Pockets

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    I can keep pepper spray in an inside compartment of my pack and not take it out until I am alone and leaving the building. Once outside, it is less their business. They do prohibit much of anything inside though.
     
  2. greenmountainbooks

    greenmountainbooks Loaded Pockets

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    This seems to prohibit a club of any kind, hence the deniability of a flashlight in a dark environment:
    Massachusetts Expandable Baton Laws
    EXPANDABLE BATON


    NOTE: This information is not provided as legal advice. Always consult a lawyer and seek legal guidance.

    The law says “Blackjack” not baton and in the following case the court has made a ruling that establishes that expandable batons are not considered blackjacks. – http://www.socialaw.com/slip.htm?cid=19527&sid=120

    GENERAL LAWS OF MASSACHUSETTS PART IV. CRIMES, PUNISHMENTS AND PROCEEDINGS IN CRIMINAL CASES.

    TITLE I. CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS. CHAPTER 269. CRIMES AGAINST PUBLIC PEACE.

    Chapter 269: Section 10. Carrying dangerous weapons…

    (b) Whoever, except as provided by law, carries on his person, or carries on his person or under his control in a vehicle, any stiletto, dagger or a device or case which enables a knife with a locking blade to be drawn at a locked position, any ballistic knife, or any knife with a detachable blade capable of being propelled by any mechanism, dirk knife, any knife having a double-edged blade, or a switch knife, or any knife having an automatic spring release device by which the blade is released from the handle, having a blade of over one and one-half inches, or a slung shot, blowgun, blackjack, metallic knuckles or knuckles of any substance which could shot be put to the same use with the same or similar effect as metallic knuckles, nunchaku, zoobow, also known as klackers or kung fu sticks, or any similar weapon consisting of two sticks of wood, plastic or metal connected at one end by a length of rope, chain, wire or leather, a shuriken or any similar pointed starlike object intended to injure a person when thrown, or any armband, made with leather which has metallic spikes, points or studs or any similar device made from any other substance or a cestus or similar material weighted with metal or other substance and worn on the hand, or a manrikigusari or similar length of chain having weighted ends; or whoever, when arrested upon a warrant for an alleged crime, or when arrested while committing a breach or disturbance of the public peace, is armed with or has on his person, or has on his person or under his control in a vehicle, a billy or other dangerous weapon other than those herein mentioned and those mentioned in paragraph (a), shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than two and one-half years nor more than five years in the state prison, or for not less than six months nor more than two and one-half years in a jail or house of correction, except that, if the court finds that the defendant has not been previously convicted of a felony, he may be punished by a fine of not more than fifty dollars or by imprisonment for not more than two and one-half years in a jail or house of correction.
     
    Last edited by greenmountainbooks, Dec 17, 2019
    #22 greenmountainbooks, Dec 17, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
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  3. greenmountainbooks

    greenmountainbooks Loaded Pockets

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    No, I want the evil one at a distance and when I strike, I want him to go down for good. With carpal tunnel and a trigger thumb the days for any fisticuffs is over.
     
  4. turbo6

    turbo6 Loaded Pockets

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    Sounds like a dilemma. I'd do some homework and invest in some really good spray; Fox Labs is recommended, but not sure if they are still the latest and greatest. If that is your main line of defense I'd go for the best.

    As far as a flashlight, I'm not really one for big lights but I don't think there's going to be anything that's pocket-sized that has the heft to land a decent blow.

    Any light more than 6 or 7 inches will likely protrude from my pants pocket and when limited to a length like that I don't think there's much out there with the mass to do any meaningful damage in a tough situation. Unless you really want to push the boundaries of what's considered "pocket carry" but then again I'd rather not have to tell people it's a flashlight in my pocket and I'm not just happy to see them.

    Of course with some many companies making smaller lights these days the implementation of strike bezels on the front is another consideration, but likely not a viable option if they are as strict as you describe.
     
  5. greenmountainbooks

    greenmountainbooks Loaded Pockets

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    Remember, it has to be invisible (i.e. in my bag) during the day, but I am alone in the building at night and can therefore take it out when leaving the building. The environment and parking garage are dark and I will need a light, right? I will carry the light in my hand and there is no need for pocket carry. If I get to a place where I am more sure of my safety (better parking, convinced that it is actually a safe area) I will carry the light in my bag with the pocket open for quick grab.
    The HUGE lights are obviously weapon-like (stuff like six D cells) but I think I can get away with four C cells. If they bitch...I downsize to a three C cell which would tuck into a pocket.
    Who knows? Despite the sinister appearance of the parking area and the isolation, perhaps the area is safe after all. I was not filled with confidence when I was there during the day, but perhaps my sense of things is overblown. The back of the garage is entirely unlit however and I am not going to enter that area without a good light and pre-scanning the area. The ability to shatter someone's ulna/radius is all to the good.
     
  6. Moshe ben David

    Moshe ben David Loaded Pockets

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    I have one of these on the backseat of the car. Totally agree both on size and weight; for me at least the thing throws a beam far enough to read house addresses if I'm seated in the car at night... which at one time I needed to do y'see! ;)

    L'chaim!

    Moshe ben David
     
  7. greenmountainbooks

    greenmountainbooks Loaded Pockets

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    It is too cold here to leave it in the car. The battery dies. I prefer the C cell size as it is easier to grip firmly. If you like a three D cell, then you need a four C cell for similar length. If you want something for your coat pocket to use like a legal blackjack, then I would go with a two cell D or C. I use my heavy elephant cane for the car and I am pretty handy with a stick. I goes with me when I need to walk in an ugly area. Right now, I will focus on the work situation, leaving other issues for down the line. I start working days for six day shifts next week and go to second shift thereafter.
     
    Last edited by greenmountainbooks, Dec 18, 2019
    #27 greenmountainbooks, Dec 18, 2019
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  8. greenmountainbooks

    greenmountainbooks Loaded Pockets

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    Agreed. I bought a four C cell Maglite and it both fits in my pack and is long enough and hefty enough to do the job. If I am discrete during the day it should not be an issue. I do not think the same could be said for something like a six D cell. I could not get one with an LED but I will retro fit at some point soon.
     
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  9. greenmountainbooks

    greenmountainbooks Loaded Pockets

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    They are legal to carry but if you are charged with anything while carrying it becomes a felony. In today's climate I am not convinced that defending yourself will never carry a charge of some kind. If it does and you have a dedicated baton, you are in jail for six months waiting for trial. If you are lucky the legal expenses will not exceed five grand.
     
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  10. NorthernHarrier

    NorthernHarrier Loaded Pockets

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    Based on my own training in self-defense and martial arts, it seems to me that the best course of action when confronted with a threatening criminal in an isolated place is to give them what they want. 99.9% of such criminals have enough brains not to physically harm someone if they can get your valuables and get out of the area as quickly as is possible. I would recommend carrying the minimum amount of cash and credit cards you need, and leaving other valuables at home on your work days. Get replacement insurance and tracking for your cell phone.

    If you still want to use a flashlight as a crime deterrent or weapon, I would recommend trying to temporarily blind the perpetrator with a light that goes instantly to maximum output. Zebralight, Klarus, Fenix, and Emisar make such lights, as do other manufacturers. If you try to use a flashlight as a blunt instrument to strike someone, you are only asking to be shot or stabbed, if they aren't 100% incapacitated as a result of your first strike.
     
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  11. chaosmagnet
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    chaosmagnet Loaded Pockets

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    My study of this matter has resulted in a different opinion. Some criminals, I’m sure, will be content with relieving compliant victims of their belongings. Far too many won’t. Nothing is without risk, but I believe that those who resist violent criminal actors with appropriate, legal counter-violence are more likely to survive than those who comply.
     
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  12. greenmountainbooks

    greenmountainbooks Loaded Pockets

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    I would never resist an individual armed with a firearm, however even recent actions in my area (as well as those in large cities shows that handing your wallet does not mean you get to leave alive. Why leave a witness? I have two wallets, one with credit cards, medical certs, a few bucks, etc. The other is filled with grocery store "discount cards" and similar stuff. If confronted, I would hand over that. I normally carry two cell phones. One cheap with nothing of importance on it.
    I do find it a dicey prospect to trust your life to someone that is proven to be willing to take it for a few dollars. Then too, I want to see at the entrance of the garage if anyone is waiting. Not when they present a weapon and a demand.
    Then too...how about the individual who strikes without making a demand? Or the individual who wants to hurt or kill for emotive/irrational reasons?
    If a person is willing to lurk in an unlighted garage late at night with a weapon, is he likely to be someone you can trust to take you wallet and bid you goodnight?
     
    Last edited by greenmountainbooks, Dec 21, 2019
    #32 greenmountainbooks, Dec 21, 2019
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  13. NorthernHarrier

    NorthernHarrier Loaded Pockets

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    I didn't say you should never resist violent actions by others. What I said is that provoking violence by others in the area where I live is often fatal, and that a flashlight is not a good weapon to use against a stranger - in my area, I presume strangers to be in possession of firearms or large knives that they are more than willing to use. The statistics show clearly that handing over one's valuables without resistance leads more often to the victim remaining intact after a robbery. It is simply not true that those who use violence are more likely to survive such a encounter than those who do not.
     
  14. NorthernHarrier

    NorthernHarrier Loaded Pockets

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    Nothing in my post above suggests that I or anyone else rely on trust of a person you don't know for your safety. Nothing in my post above suggests that there are no cases in which victims of robberies are also physically attacked. What I said was the in the overwhelming majority of cases in which people are robbed by people in public places, handing over one's valuables leads to better outcomes than trying to lash out at the perpetrator with a blunt object, firearm, or knife. People in my area are armed. Contrary to your assumption, you will not know who is armed and who is not armed, when you first encounter them. They usually are in a position to take you by surprise, so you can't expect to have time to remove your weapon from where it is and then use it, before the assailant reacts to you in some unpleasant way. If you don't completely incapacitate them when striking them, you're dead.
    The number of people who are going to come up behind you and physically attack you for no reason is very small. You can avoid such people in most cases by being aware of where you are and who is around you at all times, when you are in public spaces. I have lived for 45 years in some of the most dangerous parts of the most dangerous cities in the USA, and I have managed to avoid such attacks. Trying to incapacitate someone with a flashlight, or any other weapon, if you don't have to seems like a great way to bring on a lot more danger and legal trouble for yourself.
     
  15. chaosmagnet
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    chaosmagnet Loaded Pockets

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    Respectfully, I have not seen statistics supporting your statement above. The FBI’s Uniform Crime Report statistics I’ve seen shows otherwise. But I realize I’ve assumed that you’re in the USA, and I don’t know that. So if you’re not in the USA, those stats may be different where you live.
     
    Last edited by chaosmagnet, Dec 22, 2019
    #35 chaosmagnet, Dec 22, 2019
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  16. greenmountainbooks

    greenmountainbooks Loaded Pockets

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    I have grave doubts of this reasoning and it does not apply in any way to the situation that I am facing. It is a commercial district with an underground, unlighted parking garage. You suggest that it is irrational to scan the area as I enter the only entrance? It is irrational to be visibly armed as I enter?
    The studies I have seen, albeit a long time ago, suggested that an individual presenting as willing to resist is more likely to be passed by
    As noted, I will not oppose a gun wielder, but with a large light they can be routed out by the police if they do not have a reason for being there. I would not enter the garage if there is someone standing around or lurking behind vehicles.
    I am not stupid enough to pick a fight with an armed individual, but I have looked in vain for data to support your reasoning. I once was given a term paper by a student that supported just the opposite thesis. Her data was compelling.
    The people that attack me in the area I will be in will almost certainly be thugs looking to support a drug habit. That is reason enough for them.
    I will be armed with my light. I prefer it to begging to be allowed to live. My choice does not have to be yours.
     
  17. NorthernHarrier

    NorthernHarrier Loaded Pockets

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    If you read my first post, you would know that I suggested exactly the opposite of what you claim. I suggested that you be aware of where you are and who is around you at all times. I stated that very clearly. The studies show that persons demonstrating an awareness of what and who is around them - that is, looking alert - are less likely to be victimized. I recommended exactly that, in my first post. Walking around with a flashlight thinking you are "armed" is not the same thing at all.
    I don't understand your idea that somehow being "armed" with a large light will render a criminal compliant and available to the police. I have been in criminal law enforcement for a long time - working with all the police forces in a high crime city, writing the reports to prosecutors about what they did and what criminals do - and I know that isn't so. You are simply making an incorrect assumption that you are better protected by wielding a heavy flashlight. Where I live, people are strapped. Large flashlights aren't going to deter them from anything. Trying to strike and incapacitate them with such an object will only make things worse for you.
    I don't make a habit of telling people what to believe. You are right, though, that your choice would not be (and is not) mine. And I've lived and worked in the highest crime areas of the highest crime-rate cities in the USA. I carry a light or two with me every day, for various reasons, but never for use as a weapon.
     
  18. NorthernHarrier

    NorthernHarrier Loaded Pockets

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    The FBI's Uniform Crime Report statistics do not show otherwise. That is simply not true.
     
  19. chaosmagnet
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    I’d be interested in seeing what you’re referring to, as I’ve been studying this for some years.
     
  20. jbj

    jbj Loaded Pockets

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