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tower's throw-down --- a call to arms!

Discussion in 'The Breakroom' started by tower, Jun 8, 2012.

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  1. Shur
    • In Omnia Paratus

    Shur Loaded Pockets

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    I didnt even realize that my badge had expired 3 weeks ago... oops

    I guess that trying to enter the BST and getting blocked would be a good reminder.
    Hopefully the software will recognize the 'upgrade' and allow entry quickly. The badge seems to show up quickly enough.
     
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  2. Pointman

    Pointman Loaded Pockets

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    I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls for what must be done. I would just prefer not to have the entire forum community punished for it. If it's a lesser of two evils scenario (no forum vs limiting access to members), I understand, but is that the only alternative because it's whats easiest, or because there is no other way to collect funds without being having tonresort to draconic measures? Do we know what percentage of members will be cast out of the BST forum? How many of them account for activity in the BST forum?

    I know it's not alot of money for the majority of us, but I don't think it's fair to tell a member trying to build an EDC on a budget that if they can't afford it, they should not be buying anything...that's just imposing your economic status on others...I'd like to be a bit more empathetic to those members because I have been in their shoes in the past. I mean we are talking about Jon having to give up his dogs, but if he was just a normal member would we be telling to suck it up.

    Anyways, I know I'm a bad, bad man for looking out for the little guy, but food for thought. I don't plan to change the world, but would like to feel that all was done to maintain the positive attitude of the forum.

    As for my "support status", I'll correct that tonight...the dude abides. (atleast to see what effects this has on the BST forum)
     
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  3. angusW

    angusW EDC Junkie!!!

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    I've been meaning to get one for a while now and once I noticed this thread, I finally got off my backside and got one. Will also be visiting the site store. Hope this helps keep this place going in the black.
     
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  4. Rev. Chuck

    Rev. Chuck Loaded Pockets

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  5. xbanker
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    xbanker Geriatric Admin
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    @ Pointman ... first, let me emphasize that I appreciate the obvious thought you've put into your posts. Tells me you care. But to speak to a couple of your points:

    "but is that the only alternative because it's what's easiest, or because there is no other way to collect funds without having to resort to draconian measures" There are only so many ways revenue can be generated.
      • Craftsman program: $10/month per craftsman-holder. Count the number of craftsman-holders we have. Not much money.
      • Banner ads: contrary to what some might think, those command modest per-month fees; it takes time (6 months? a year?) to source the right kind of advertisers who will participate (can't be companies who compete with the store).
      • Members: remember, what's being proposed impacts members who realize an economic gain from B/S/T participation. Sellers? They have access to a significant pool of interested and capable buyers. They're able to quickly convert no-longer-wanted gear into cash. No eB*y hassles. Far superior to, say, Craigslist. Want to sell a knife on another of the popular forums? You're gonna pay for the privilege. See here for factual examples. Want to sell on eBay? It's not free. Buyer? You're getting access to the gear you (presumably) like from honest sellers, usually in like-new condition, and at fair, if not great, prices. You're saving money, thanks to EDCF B/S/T (read: economic gain).
    "I don't think it's fair to tell a member trying to build an EDC on a budget that if they can't afford it, they should not be buying anything" I might argue that "member on a budget" fares better with a modest-cost supporter badge and buying on B/S/T. Better gear and better prices than if he/she forced to go elsewhere to buy inferior gear at retail prices. As long as we're talking "fair," I'll add that it's not fair that Jon pays for us to play for free.

    "I mean we are talking about Jon having to give up his dogs, but if he was just a normal member would we be telling to suck it up." Not a valid comparison. A "normal member" hasn't paid out-of-pocket for over 6-years so each one of us can play in his sandbox for free.

    I know I sound like a broken record, and for that I apologize to the members.

    Opinions on both sides of the topic have been eloquently expressed by some fine folks, and I respect those opinions. But personally, I can't ignore a couple of irrefutable facts:
    • If things aren't done a little differently on a sustained basis going forward, the forum will likely close. Not a question of if, but when.
    • Daily forum operations cost money. Periodic software upgrades cost money (usually lots of money). Equipment costs money. Jon has paid these costs out-of-pocket for 6+ years. Yes, aided by modest amounts generated by the supporter program. But mostly, he's single-handedly subsidized our fun and enjoyment here at no small expense to life and bank account.
    • EDCF isn't alone. Forums we've all frequented face the same $$$ challenges.
    • These other forums have taken one or more steps to cope: banner advertising (I counted four banner ads on the same page at one well-known forum yesterday); and/or ads inserted in threads; charging sellers, and in some cases buyers, for B/S/T privileges (and it is a privilege to use B/S/T).
    • Banner ads are a distraction we've been spared here. Besides, banner ads by gear companies would likely suck more life out of the forum store (read: Jon's livelihood).
    • If we/you/me want to continue to enjoy the forum, it's time to "belly up to the bar."
    If you can "take it or leave it" — you're not passionate one way or the other — I respect that. This isn't "the only forum in town." But it's d*a*m*n sure one of the best and would be sorely missed by a lot of people.
     
  6. Belush2
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    Belush2 EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    @xbanker...Thank You For So Eloquently "Filling In Some Of The Issues" to my point of "Reading Between The Lines" why things need to change in order for this Forum to survive!!
     
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  7. xbanker
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    xbanker Geriatric Admin
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    Thank you Jack ... but it's best not to encourage me. :bounce:
     
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  8. Gnarly
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    Gnarly Loaded Pockets

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    As has been expressed here already, if the EDCForum is to survive, we must stop freeloading and become CONSISTENTLY supportive.

    I hope we don't lose a single member over this, but it's time to either fish or cut bait.

    If you are too miserly to pay $5 per quarter, or $20/ year to shop or sell here, then we'll miss you.

    Especially: the first couple hours. After that.....
     
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  9. xbanker
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    xbanker Geriatric Admin
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    And that, ladies and gentlemen, sums it up quite succinctly.:D Another Gnarly-ism worthy of note. But seriously Mr. G, tell us how you really feel.

    If history is any indicator, if you buy one item every three months from Gnarly on B/S/T, you'll get at least $5 worth of the "extra goodies" he always includes. So it pays for itself. :)
     
  10. KeyeEl

    KeyeEl EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    I was hoping he had another MM Friction Folder kickin around so I could buy it and get some goodies.
     
  11. tower
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    tower Loaded Pockets

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    My bad.:cold:
     
  12. Pointman

    Pointman Loaded Pockets

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    i get some of the costs...heck, I wish there was a way for the forum to not run like crap on my mobile devices. Maybe some of the funds can help sort that out so it runs as smoothly as it did prior to the revamp.

    I fear this may have a negative aspect in not onky the BST, but all across the board. I dont if anyone has looked into how many supporters vs members interact in the marketplace and how this move will affect traffic. How I see it is like a little EDC shopping mall...but we just put a charge to park your car, and created some overhead for the sellers. While miniscule to some, other sellers may try to work their support fees into their prices to offset the expenditure to list. Buyers may want reduced prices to offset the price paid to enter into the marketplace...It's all speculation, but we'll soon see how it pans out.I think it was already mentionned that at first non-supporters will only be restricted from selling, but not browsing or buying....I think that would be the ideal direction...charge the vendors for their stall, but dont penalize the shopper for choosing to spend his/her money on the forum instead of going to one of the other venues available.I feel that this may have been better handled if atleast a poll had been taken to see if this was a good idea...I think we have a fairly intelligent group of folks and if this was the best way to keep things running, we would climb aboard...maybe there was such discussion and I missed it with work, and both my wife and son being sick.
    I think time will tell. If something that took me 4 days to sell now takes 2-3 weeks because of the limited traffic, I think may not renew my support and take my goods to where the buyers are...just simple capitalism. I had no problems supporting the forum financially if the need was there, but this has left a bad taste in my mouth...just thought I'd be honest. I wanted to support the site for some time, but just never knew exactly how to do it...It's one thing to have a free forum, its another to be forced to pay for what may be an inferior experience. I currently only upped up to a +1 support mainly because, I'm going to practice a bit of that empathy I talked about and talked to a few of those "budget concious" members about their financial status...if they cannot afford to donate, I may "sponsor" their access to the forum. I dont need a +4 badge when I know I can help 3 people gain access to the stuff they need.


    Wiith that, I state that I am currently paid up and did my part, and hope this decision is a beneficial one and proves my logic wrong. I dont hold any personal grudge against anyone for the decision, and dont think it was done with malevolent intent, however, I dont think much thought was taken into the solution, or it's effects.


    Good night, and hope everyone has a great Sunday! :)
     
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  13. Pointman

    Pointman Loaded Pockets

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    gotcha...point taken, but I dont think you understood what my point about Jon was. I all, I agree that we should all "pony up" if we benefit from the site...I just dont like the way it's implemented, especially if the mods have already mentoined better alternatives.
     
  14. tower
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    The above reply, along with this one, sum up my feelings completely.
    The only thing I will add is that Jon and many "foundational" forum members have agonized over this decision for years (literally) a period during which indecision broke Jon's financial back and worse. Well that time is over... Period. People may voice all of the dissenting opinions they like. That is part of the beauty of this forum. But this choice was not made capriciously and it will not be changed.

    Lastly, Pointman, I most drastically object to your characterizing these actions as Draconian. Since they are not, if you object so strenuously, you are free to leave any time (which certainly makes this something other than Draconian).

    You ARE free to kick in $5 for as many of your friends who buy on BST but can not afford the $5 as you wish, which would be the responsible, non-freeloader thing to do. Many forum members have already done so.
     
  15. Rev. Chuck

    Rev. Chuck Loaded Pockets

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    Just to throw my two cents,

    BF charges you to sell or to place WTB threads, USN charges you to enter the Cove, We all benefit from the BST, where we find stuff that we want at a discounted price, the honor system in this place is amazing, I have done trades with people with a few posts and I had never had a problem.

    Like they said If you are gonna sell your items here 5 dollars is nothing for the convenience of being able to post in the BST
     
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  16. cowsmilk

    cowsmilk EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    Anyone who wants something that has value will find a way to have it, period. Want a vehicle to get from point A to point B? You will find a way to acquire it. Want to take your (fill in the blank) to a very fancy meal, you will acquire the funds to do it. Want that custom Chris reeve knife, or a hinderer, or maybe even a surefire or hds systems torch, you will find a way to get them. Want to enter the BST area in edcforums? There will now be a charge to do so. No matter how big or small that charge, if the BST area holds value to you, you will find a way to enter it.

    Change can be painful, but stagnation is death. Nobody wants the forum to die, so we have to make small modifications to keep it alive.

    Sent from my phone.
     
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  17. Belush2
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    Belush2 EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    I think it is evident that there are a lot of members who are in a position to help the Forum and are happy to answer the call for help when it is called upon.

    There are members here who go out of their way to create ways of raising funds for this Forum. There have been Raffles, Giveaways, EDC Forum Support Exchange, Members who have bought Supporter Badges for other Members, the list goes on and on.

    BST is not the only part of this wonderful Forum...there is a lot of fun going on throughout all the other parts of this Forum.

    There are a lot of members here who do not even have any interested in participating in the BST part of the Forum, and they proudly display their support for this Forum with Supporter Badges.

    Fact is...BST is and should always be considered a “business” part of this Forum. Therefore it should be generating some funding to support the Forum.

    Sadly everyone everywhere has at sometime to make decisions where unfortunately there is a need that sacrifices have to be made. No matter how small or large they may be.

    EDC Forums...Live it...Love it...Support it!!!!!
     
  18. tamaders

    tamaders Loaded Pockets

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    Done! I've benefited greatly from BST my short time here ... Buying a beautiful green Vic Alox from keyeEl, a great pair of Costa sunglasses that I absolutely love from colubrid, and recently trading for a blue Alox Vic with TECENG (who was gracious enough to throw in one of his killer centipedes!!!).

    This is a helpful forum filled with great people ... Easily worth a few bucks of support. I'll try to add as I can.
     
  19. Bullzaye

    Bullzaye Loaded Pockets

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    Well, if this is the way things are going to be here from now on, I guess I'm out. I'm not going to go into a long diatribe describing my personal situation, or my reasons, because frankly...it would be an obvious waste of everyone's time. However, I will say that I agree with those who opine that telling people, if they can't afford "$X.XX" then they should not be buying gear, is in poor taste.

    I certainly wish Jon nothing but the best, and the same goes for the forum.

    Tim
     
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  20. tower
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    tower Loaded Pockets

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    Tim, I'm not sure what "I'm out" means. No one is telling you that you must leave the forum, just that you must be a badge holder to transact business on BST. If the only value this forum has for you is BST, then I would think you would want to support the forum. This forum does not exist spontaneously. It takes many sleepless days and a constant influx of money from Jon to keep things going. So if you can't afford the $5 to transact on BST, one of the least expensive place to do this on the web, I guess you have much bigger problems with which to deal than whether or not you'll be trading gear here. As far as poor taste goes, I think reaching into Jon's pocket for cash again and again and then complaining when he finally zips his pocket shut is the epitome of poor taste. And I am sorry to see you go.
     
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