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Discussion in 'Handguns' started by KaBarred, Jan 7, 2009.

  1. KaBarred

    KaBarred Empty Pockets

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    I recently went to the range to give my G21 a little attention.. I was shooting at generic square tagets with the different size circles on them, from 33 feet. I used a single mag on each target to test my accuracy and was making some decent groups throughout, but my first shot on each target was always a flyer and was nowhere near the other 12 rounds. Is there something I'm doing wrong here? or can anyone offer any suggestions on how to remedy this?
     
  2. Jbo

    Jbo Empty Pockets

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    Are you new to shooting? Could be you are anticipating the recoil on the first round and yanking it a bit. Try to let the first shot be a complete surprise to you. Slowly squeeze the trigger until you fire. Do it right and the shot should be on target.
     
  3. dewildeman

    dewildeman Loaded Pockets

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    With semi-autos it's not unusual for the first shot to be a flyer. A couple of reasons I've been given is that the first round chambered by hand doesn't seat as well as a round chambered by the action of the following shots. Another reason is that the barrel is cooler for the first shot and affects the bullet. Back in the day when I shot on a rifle team we would always shoot a couple of sighting shots to warm up the barrel before we shot for score.
     
  4. KaBarred

    KaBarred Empty Pockets

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    that makes a lot of sense, but guess theres really no way to fix it then, it's just the nature of the beast.


    Jbo - that's what some other people at the range were telling me, that if I am gonna jerk on any of them it's gonna be the first. But this doesn't really explain the flyers to me, because as with any other shot, I do anticipate the recoil, but I shoot every shot the same. When I first started shooting (not just pistols) however, the first shot was always a suprise... and the second.. and the third... :laugh:
     
  5. Mitty

    Mitty Loaded Pockets

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    Definitions first: To a target pistol shooter, a flyer might be 3" out at 50 yards. To a target rifle shooting a flyer might be 1-2MOA/1"-2" at 100 yards. I don't think the classic target shooter's "first round flyer" would be even discernable at 33 feet. I would say that whatever is happening in your case is due to a technique problem of some sort.

    That said, Glock triggers are not what anyone would call wonderful. If you want to spend time looking for an external cause, it would not hurt to smooth out the trigger a bit. (If you're not comfortable taking the weapon apart, hire a gunsmith to do this.) The two bad actors are the sliding interfaces between the trigger bar and (a) the "connector" and (b) the rear, forward-facing face, of the striker. You want to smooth the sliding that occurs at these interfaces. www.brownells.com will have everything you need including a good assembly/disassembly book.

    Use a hard Arkansas stone on the striker face just enough to polish it and debur the corners. (Deburring will make you feel very professional; it will not affect the trigger smoothness. Do not, however, change the radius at the bottom edge at all or you will screw up the striker release.) Use fine-grit rubberized abrasive (aka "Cratex") by hand (NOT ! in a Dremel !!) to polish the two rubbing surfaces of the trigger bar and the sort of hooked underside surface of the connector. Then spread a dab of Brownell's "Action Magic" on the two interfaces. One dab per interface. "A dab" is slightly larger than the period at the end of this sentence. Reassemble and go back to the range confident that you have eliminated the trigger as an excuse.

    From there, like Jbo said, it's up to you. Maybe hire a coach for an hour or have someone make a video as you shoot. The muzzle is moving before the bullet leaves the gun. Why?
     
  6. protaganis

    protaganis Loaded Pockets

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    One trick a couple of us at my range use, is to aim low for your first shot or two. On a man sized target at 33 ft, try mid abdomen. Once you've felt the recoil, a time or two, your body will fall into elastic resistance memory (tensing the muscles properly to control the recoil without throwing off your shot.)
    People have a tendency to be a little too relaxed for the first shot and that can let the shot fly high. Use this if you find that the issue isn't a mechanical one.
    This is what works for myself and a few friends, hope it helps you.
     
  7. ChargeTTi

    ChargeTTi Empty Pockets

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    I've never fired a gun in my life but I have a decent understanding of how they work. Try firing all the rounds in the magazine not all the rounds in the gun, so that the mag is emty and you still have one round in the chamber. 0+1 if you will, slide not locked back. Then quickly put a fresh mag in and start firing again, see what happens. :shrug:
     
  8. Mitty

    Mitty Loaded Pockets

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    One other thought:

    The direction of the "flyer" can tell you something. I have seen charts that purport to diagnose problems based on the direction the bullet is off-center. I am not sure I believe all of what those charts assert, but the classic "jerk the trigger" hit for a right-handed shooter is low/left at about the 7 o'clock position.

    If your "flyers" are not always in the same place, then it's simple: You are not focusing carefully enough on the front sight. IMHO, YMMV, IANAL, etc.

    Edit: I got curious and went lookng for one of those charts. Here's an example: http://www.scribd.com/doc/7081861/Pisto-Shot-Analysis Kind of a clumsy presentation but you will get the idea. A little more internet searching will probably find you many others.
     
  9. Mitty

    Mitty Loaded Pockets

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    ROFL
     
  10. ChargeTTi

    ChargeTTi Empty Pockets

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    I'm 15 and live in the UK what do you expect?
     
  11. KaBarred

    KaBarred Empty Pockets

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    As far as a flyer, I'm talking about roughly 2" away from my group. They were landing either up and to the left or down and to the left of my groups. I'm a right handed shooter. I'm not the greatest shooter in the world my any means, but I can produce some rather decent groups at this distance. Wheter it be a mechanical or physical problem I am really not sure at this point, but I think the first step I'm going to take is to have someone watch me, and see if there is anything happening on the first shot that is not on the other 12. If we reach a conclusion that it is not me, then a mechanical problem will be looked at.

    In all reality, if i was shooting at a person, the first shot would have made contact every single time, I'm just looking for a little more consistancy in my groupings.

    Thanks everyone for your help!
     
  12. bigfoot

    bigfoot Loaded Pockets

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    Same problem here... anticipating the recoil with a G23. I also noticed that when shooting my relative's Beretta 92 that my grouping was a lot better. The Beretta is definitely smoother to me at 9mm versus the .40S&W of the G23 with more kick. The prescription is probably a lot more range time, at least for me.
     
  13. 0dBm

    0dBm Loaded Pockets

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    [size=16pt]This is not a good situation particularly if you need to use the firearm for defense. Many more rounds and dozens of hours at the range would mitigate this condition likely only after the following underlying condition is resolved.

    You may also be suffering from the heightened awareness of discharging a firearm and the expectation of the recoil having an effect on the trajectory of the bullet.

    I have taught several people having this condition: all of them were male. It wasn't easy to correct because all of them had the expectation of them from their fathers that they know about firearms. This expectation prompted them to learn. The more they learned and observed others using firearms, the more they anticipated the recoil.

    I corrected the condition by having each of these students dry-fire their firearm at an indoor range using Snapcaps. I then had them discharge a magazine loaded with live ammunition. Then I loaded a second magazine with both live ammunition AND Snapcaps without them seeing ME load them. I told then that this second magazine also contained live ammunition. I observed each one of them individually and noted their reaction when they pulled the trigger on the Snapcap (they did not know it was a Snapcap in the chamber).

    Each one of them actually let the firearm RISE as if there was GOING to be recoil. They were anticipating it!!!
     
  14. KaBarred

    KaBarred Empty Pockets

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    i've done some more shooting since my initial post, the groupings are a lot the same. I can tell you too, that before every round I am anticipating the recoil, but I have tried to make a conscious effort to try and not over correct. Also, in the back of my mind, I do have this thought that the recoil will change the tradjectory of the shot. It's just something I'll have to overcome I suppose..

    just to note - every round in the mag hits the target, and if it were a person, he would have 13 holes in him (assuming of course he stood still :laugh:). I know it's a totally different ballgame under extreme stress, but my shots arn't off so much that they would be misses.
     
  15. BigV

    BigV Loaded Pockets

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    Are you shooting left or right handed??
    First off shooting from a distance of 33' is pretty far considering most self defense scenarios occur within a 3 to 6 foot radius.
    Second, at that distance any miniscule movement will cause your POA to be off.
    Quite frankly 2” off POA at 33’ is not bad shooting!
    My suggestion would be to move your target in to about 15' and just keep practicing.
     
  16. ashleyh57

    ashleyh57 Loaded Pockets

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    If it is only the first round then it shouldn't be anything mechanical.

    Are you correcting your aim after the first shot...such as if you fire the first shot and it is 2 inches left(and up or down) are you giving it a little bit of "kentucky windage." Maybe with the first shot you have no point of reference as to where the rounds are going to hit.

    If this is the case you might be able to have the sights adjusted a hair.

    Just a thought...
     
  17. KaBarred

    KaBarred Empty Pockets

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    I have been thinking about the sights a lot lately. I'm still not 100% comfortable with them, and this could be the source of my problem as well.. There's just so many variables here its a lot to think about, and I now have plenty of new things to try, thanks guys for your help!