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Thoughts home home defense and open/ccw

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by Bloodstriker, Mar 24, 2014.

  1. Bloodstriker

    Bloodstriker Loaded Pockets

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    For those of you who EDC a handgun, I was wondering what made you come to the decision to do so, and what pros and cons there are.

    I'm from Canada, and our handgun laws are extremely strict. We are only allowed to bring the handgun directly from our home to a shooting range or gun smith and back. The firearm can only be loaded when at a approved shooting range. We also require paperwork to transport the firearm to said destination. If we forget the paperwork, our firearms license, to trigger lock AND case lock the gun, or deviate from a reasonably direct path, we are faced with serious criminal charges.

    Needless to say, we are not allowed to carry a handgun.

    It seems our government believes that the idea of the citizens carrying handguns will lead to wild west shootouts. Sadly, it seems a majority of the Canadian public believes this is exactly what happens in the USA.

    I am of the opinion that personal safety should be a universal human right. I hate the fact that my family and/or I could be robbed, beaten and killed over our material goods. Even worse is that I can't do anything about it. We don't have any type of stand your ground laws. If somebody broke into my house and wanted to steal all of its contents, I am expected to attempt to escape and call the police. Failing this, I am able to ask the person to leave. If he doesn't, there isn't anything I can do. In the event that he threatens or attacks me, I can use the minimum amount of force required to stop the attack - nothing more. If he does pull a gun on me, then I am allowed to use my firearm. The sad part is that if it comes to this, I will then be charged with unsafe storage and dangerous discharge of the firearm.

    Do a google search of "Ian Thompson".

    The person was not convicted, but spend a huge part of his retirement funds to fight the police in court.

    With all of this being said, I doubt there will ever be a day that I will have the option of CCW in this country. But for those of you that can, and do, what sort of responsibilities do you feel have been put on your shoulders? Do you feel that you should protect the general public if needed? Do you feel that it is your responsibility to take training courses and become proficient with the firearm under certain situations?
     
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  2. ghuns

    ghuns Loaded Pockets

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    I carry for the same reason police carry, to protect myself. Whether I use my firearm in defense of a stranger is going to be VERY dependent on the situation and my level of knowledge about the situation.





    Are we required to become proficient in basic high school history or economics before we exercise our right to vote? Obviously not.;)




    All the rights we enjoy as Americans are best practiced with a good portion of personal responsibility and sound judgement, but there is no way to legally require such.

    In many states, mine included, I must pay a fee(tax) to exercise my 2nd Amendment right. In others, a class, that is not free, must be taken and a fee(tax) is paid to the state. I find none of this to be acceptable, just as poll taxes are unacceptable.

     
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  3. FlyersFanJV

    FlyersFanJV Loaded Pockets

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    I would think that most of us that CCW feel a sense of more responsibility when we carry. It's something that most people I would hope consider before they even get a CCW permit, as you have to be ready to use that tool if needed. I know that when I carry versus not, that I am definitely more aware of my surroundings and thought process, I don't allow my mind to wonder like I would if I didn't have my firearm on me. I haven't taken any training classes, but I am friends with a lot of local law enforcement in my area, and I've gone shooting and running with some of those guys, so I've picked up pointers from them over the years. I also go to the range and practice at least monthly to stay proficient, as if I was put in a shooting situation, I want to make sure my rounds hit what I intend them to hit. Most of us that CCW would feel this way. As for my home, I live in PA, where our law is the castle doctrine, which means that anyone in my house that is uninvited, I have any right to get them out of there. Again, this has to be thought out, if I shoot someone in the back who is trying to flee, then I can go to jail. But if they are uninvited and do not leave when confronted, I have every right to defend my castle. As for protecting the general public, that is an individual choice each CCW holder needs to make on their own. I've read some cases when people who CCW are interviewed that they would flee, and only defend themselves or immediate family if confronted. My own personal opinion on this is that if I'm out somewhere and somebody decides to shoot up the place, I'm not going to sit by and let someone gun down innocent people, so yes, I would confront that situation with deadly force if needed, and deal with the repercussions after the threat was down.
     
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  4. Bloodstriker

    Bloodstriker Loaded Pockets

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    Thanks for the insights. I think the Canadian public can learn a lot from our brothers in the south when it comes to these matters.
     
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  5. farnorthdan
    • GITD Manix 2XL Owner

    farnorthdan Loaded Pockets

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    In your situation the 3 "S" rule would apply,
    shoot
    shovel
    shut up

    ;)
     
  6. Bloodstriker

    Bloodstriker Loaded Pockets

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    I can't even talk about something like that or the police would come and confiscate all of my firearms.

    Truly, registration = confiscation
     
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  7. J_C
    • In Omnia Paratus

    J_C Loaded Pockets

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    I have a permit. I rarely carry. My decision not to is based on my employer prohibiting it on their premises, and while I would not be breaking a law, they could still fire me. That leaves evenings if I go back out after going home, or weekends. In either case, it would also imply I was going somewhere that did not post signs prohibiting carry, which some businesses that I go to do. I did carry this weekend. I always carry concealed, even though I can legally carry openly.

    The responsibility that is placed on me is that I am fully legally liable for any injury or death caused if I choose to use the firearm and anything at all goes wrong. I can go to jail, I can be sued and lose everything I own. Seems like a pretty big responsibility.

    I have no obligation to protect the general public. My goal if I were in a public setting and some violent crime was occurring would be to survive and be a good witness, unless it was overwhelmingly clear what was going on (active shooter rampage kind of thing) AND I thought I could safely stop it and not make things worse. When things are unclear, it may be anything from a plainclothes police officer making an arrest to idiots playing a prank, or you may not be sure who is the aggressor and who is the victim.

    My state mandated an 8-hour class to get my permit, so I have that training. I also have had a fair amount of training/experience from a prior career. Since the stakes are very high, I would think it prudent to have some level of training and understanding of the laws prior to being ready to dispense deadly force.
     
  8. StJimmyS21

    StJimmyS21 Loaded Pockets

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    While I do not advocate anything illegal, I also believe that despite the states misgivings, personal protection is a fundemental human right. I'd also be willing to bet that the person who had to spend most of their retirement is happy to at least be around to acknowledge the fact that they have very little retirement.

    In terms of responsibility while carrying, the public is my first responsibility while on duty. The moment I leave the gates, they drop significantly. We can draw up a thousand scenarios, but long story short; my families safety comes first. Outside of that its purely situationally dependent. We can table top that stuff all day, but it comes down to your own thought process.

    As far as having any extra training...I think that if you are undertaking the responsibility of carrying a loaded weapon, you owe it to yourself and society to be as well trained as possible. I personally think that the training that is mandated by the state of Michigan is weak sauce, and usually filled with a bunch of idiots who will spout out gunrag crap and call it valid knowledge. The last class I took I cringed when the instructor fired off some bit about dragging a body back inside the house...in certain crucial circles, that's called 'tampering with evidence'. So considering the depth of knowledge coming from those mouthpieces, then yes: get as much training as possible. And learn the huge difference between punching holes in paper on a Saturday afternoon, and having to activate the mean-gene and get your fight on in less than perfect conditions. But the same parallel could be drawn for a lot of circumstances we encounter in day to day life. We Americans are horrible about thinking that having the minimal amount of training to be licensed in something makes us an expert.

    I feel for you man, I really do. Some countries have misguided ideas of personal safety, and we all know what they say about the road to Hell. All I can say is that if you ever come south a ways to Michigan, I'll front the ammo if you bring the legit beer for after.
     
  9. ghuns

    ghuns Loaded Pockets

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    What is enough training? Is an armed mall security guard properly trained? How about a Brinks truck driver? Heck, half my cop buddies do not demonstrate a high degree of shooting skill. They may have Joe Schmoe beat in the stress response category, but their basic marksmanship leaves a lot to be desired. Should we be required to possess special forces like proficiency with a handgun?

    People who carry a gun for a living require an amount of training that their employer deems necessary. This training serves to cover the employers butt and to protect their investment in the employee.

    As a private citizen who chooses to be armed, I am the only one covering my butt. I am responsible legally and morally for my actions. The amount of training I choose to undertake should be my call to make.

    There is no other right in our Bill of Rights that requires a demonstration of proficiency or a fee to enjoy that right. If we want it to be so, we need to change the 2nd Amendment to say that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall be predicated on their ability to meet the State's minimum standards of proficiency and their ability to pay whatever fee that the State deems appropriate.

    Living in a free society, especially one with 300 million+people, comes with risk. The biggest risk is that there are vast numbers of people who abuse this freedom and act irresponsibly. People of this ilk do not care what laws they break. They ignore licensing requirements. Additional restrictions on our 2nd Amendment right are only a burden to those who are the least risk.
     
  10. FenixArcher

    FenixArcher EDC Junkie!!!

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    I will CCW when I am the legal age, however I can OC right now.
    But I am not a fan of open carrying. I think being in public with a gun on your side raises people's anxiety and suspicion. I will do it occasionally when I get moved into my new place over the summer, but mostly on the 2nd of each month (its a campaign thing) to support the 2nd Amendment. I've talked with someone locally who OCs and he said the general public reaction around here is positive. But another guy workin at another gun shop said most of the peeps he seen do it just like to "play cowboy" and show off.
    So I'll try the waters once to see how it goes.
     
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  11. pathwinder14

    pathwinder14 Loaded Pockets

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    I support Open Carry across the board.

    Here's why (Forgive my diatribe please):
    It’s all about violence.

    Outlawed guns = Only criminals and police carry them. Police respond 2-10 minutes after a crime has happened. Criminals can rob or mug till their heart’s content.
    No CCW allowed = Criminals are less likely to break into homes, but can still mug and rob as they please on the street.
    CCW allowed = Criminals now have to gamble. They have to decide if they think someone is carrying or not. The odds are still in their favor though so they still rob and mug.
    Open carry = Criminals can now actually see firearms on people’s hips. They can see gun holsters sticking out of jackets. They are now at a disadvantage because they can see many people are armed. The criminals decide better. Crime rates drop. Look at Arizona and Texas.

    Violence is a tool. I do not advocate violence. I dislike it greatly. I will do all I can to avoid it, as it is the absolute last resort. However I understand its place.

    Violence is part of human nature. It is simply part of our hard wiring. We have been violent for our entire history. Don't believe me? Last I checked the Egyptians, the Romans, the ancient Greeks, the Samurai, the Persians, the Vikings, Spanish Inquisition, etc. were plenty violent...and for the most part didn't even have guns.

    "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - Robert A Heinlein

    Violence (divine) is also justified by the Bible. The great flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the 10 plagues, crushing Pharaoh’s army in the Red Sea, bringing down the walls of Jericho, Jesus clearing the temple; all of these were violent. Those events were not peaceful differing exchanges of ideas or well-presented arguments over a cup of coffee. Those events were violent, divinely justified, but violent all the same. Divine violence was justified to deal with those situations because the diplomatic attempts failed. However, God is all powerful. He could have made Sodom and Gomorrah simply vanish instead of raining sulphur and fire. He could have caused the nephilim to disappear into thin air instead of causing the great flood. Yet he chose a violent means. I do not question his means. I simply illustrate the place violence holds.

    What did violence accomplish in all the above events and cultures? It garnered immediate results. It was a sign to anyone else watching. It was a warning to potential rivals. It taught lessons to survivors.

    So what am I trying to say? The gun control issue is really an issue of controlling violence. Only the law abiding citizens will adhere to the laws. Criminals will not. Removing guns only disarms the innocent, turning them into victims. Removing guns will not remove violence. Look at Chicago. They have a zero tolerance gun law yet it is rife with shootings.
    “An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” - Robert A Heinlein
     
  12. jda

    jda Loaded Pockets

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    Why carry? Im going to go a little more broad with my answer, and answer the question of why be armed. (in the words of jeff cooper "carrying a gun makes you no more armed than owning a guitar makes you a musician)

    Well, first - Its my right as a free man and as a human-being. Irregardless of what ANYONE or ANY group of people write down on paper, my rights are my own and not subject to the whims of others. Regardless of what banner they hide behind. To me (and im not endorsing illegal activities, nor actions) the legality of me defending myself, my family, or my republic, is irrelevant. The consiquences of being unarmed far out weight the potential consequences it may come from being armed. I wouldn't be able to live knowing I could have done something, but being ill prepared stopped me from being to effectively handle the situation, because I wasn't "allowed". (There is a HUGE difference between being able and being allowed) From the time I get out of bed in the morning, to the time I get back into bed at night, there is always a firearm within arms reach, ready to go.

    As I type this, there is an AR15 a foot away, and a glock 19 on my side. There is an FAL in my Jeep, along with all the other equipment I could need to go with it. My entire summer is scheduled around training courses, and my budget for everything else is controlled by them.

    Part of being armed is being proficient with those tools. That means training. As much and as often as time and money allow.
    I do not feel that it is the place of government to require training, but I do believe it is good practice to be proficient in the use of arms.

    Its not a decision that can or should be taken lightly, it is a life altering choice. It requires you to dress around your firearm, and even to think differently.

    For me, its no longer a hobby, or a sport, its become a large part of who I am and I honestly can not imagine it being any other way. Its not there to take life, its there to save it.

    If you have to really ask "why" then perhaps its not for you, there is nothing wrong with that, youre just wired differently.
     
  13. HappyPuppy

    HappyPuppy Loaded Pockets

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    Yes I carry everyday the reason is personal protection. Just last week we had an armed bank robbery. This was a block from where I live. The fellow was on the loose and desperate. I probably passed him on the trail I was on as well.
    The thing is one never knows when personal defense will be needed. If I knew it would be easier.

    I was trained in the military to handle firearms and I doo not need someone that has taken a bunch of run and gun classes how to defend myself. I am not a cop and my needs are different.

    just 'bout the action boss...
     
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  14. StJimmyS21

    StJimmyS21 Loaded Pockets

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    ghuns-

    I think you read way too much into my response. If you think you are adequately trained to deal with whatever threats you may encounter in your day to day life; then go forth and be unbothered. But we don't choose the time, place, and method in which we are tested, and if we come up wanting under those circumstances we have nobody to blame but ourselves. I tend to live by the idea that we are forever students. When talking about life and death skills that are perishable if not maintained, this goes doubly so. The words "good enough" will never run through my thought process.
     
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  15. Bloodstriker

    Bloodstriker Loaded Pockets

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    I believe that training is up to each individual to decide. Although I do not have any experience with carrying, I can relate to certain self defense mindsets as I have formally studied martial arts for quite some time.

    It true that training helps us maintain and hopefully improve our skills. However, I feel that the most valuable lessons that I have learned during training is to know where my limits are. Knowing what we are/are not capable of helps us better assess how to handle any given situation.

    Given the gravity of using a firearm in a self defense scenario, I would imagine that would be of utmost importance.
     
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  16. ghuns

    ghuns Loaded Pockets

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    My bad. We are in complete agreement. I have this on the wall in my office so I see it every day...

    Good Enough
    My son, beware of “good enough,”
    It isn’t made of sterling stuff;
    It’s something any man can do,
    It marks the many from the few,
    It has no merit to the eye,
    It’s something any man can buy,
    Its name is but a sham and bluff,
    For it is never “good enough.”
    With “good enough” the shirkers stop
    In every factory and shop;
    With “good enough” the failures rest
    And lose to men who give their best;
    With “good enough” the car breaks down
    And men fall short of high renown.
    My son, remember and be wise,
    In “good enough” disaster lies.
    With “good enough” have ships been wrecked,
    The forward march of armies checked,
    Great buildings burned and fortunes lost;
    Nor can the world compute the cost
    In life and money it has paid
    Because at “good enough” men stayed.
    Who stops at “good enough” shall find
    Success has left him far behind.
    There is no “good enough” that’s short
    Of what you can do and you ought.
    The flaw which may escape the eye
    And temporarily get by,
    Shall weaken underneath the strain
    And wreck the ship or car or train,
    For this is true of men and stuff—
    Only the best is “good enough.”
    Edgar Guest
     
  17. RBid

    RBid Loaded Pockets

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    This will be brief due to time constraints.

    First: I do not carry for a living. I have never been military, LE, security, or a contractor. I have more formal training and trigger time than most of any of the above, by a fair margin. I have survived a real world experience with an armed threat, thankfully without having to pull the trigger. I am educated with regard to local laws, and I regularly practice to maintain proficiency and to keep manipulation fluid.

    Among the reasons why I carry:

    I am aware that law enforcement begins after a crime has been committed and a victim has been born. My preference is to prevent victimization.


    If you don't carry it every day, it's not every day carry.
     
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  18. malraux72

    malraux72 Loaded Pockets

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  19. Norm66

    Norm66 Loaded Pockets

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    I'm new to concealed carry (4 days in actually) but I've been an armed citizen most of my life. I was raised with guns in the house both for hunting and for defense and never saw a reason to do otherwise.

    Now with a concealed carry permit I fully intend to go armed everywhere it's legal to do so. The past 4 days I've been to WalMart, grocery stores, a doc in a box, pharmacy, restaurant, gas station, a city park and all over my neighborhood walking the dogs. Nobody has noticed I'm carrying and I like it that way.

    I intend to practice what I've learned on a regular basis and take additional training as time and money allow.
    Why? I think it was summed up perfectly two posts above mine by RBid: "I am aware that law enforcement begins after a crime has been committed and a victim has been born. My preference is to prevent victimization."
     
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  20. callelk

    callelk Loaded Pockets

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    I know you are going to get a lot of advice by experts here but in my experienced opinion, if you cannot have/practice with a handgun, get the shortest, legal shotgun you can. Why, maneuverability......period! Learn to shoot center mass with it from the hip at 5-10 yards.

    I left California 20+ years ago and have had a CCW since leaving. I don’t always carry but when I do, it’s a Browning Pattern 1911 (always wanted to use that line).

    But I digress; I was the victim of two home invasions in CA. The first was a drugged up kid who was unarmed and with my wife and 3-year old in the house I really did not want to shoot. When I confronted him with my Smith wheel gun he had no fear and kept advancing demanding money. As I backed into the master bedroom with my wife (cradling our son) behind me and screaming at the police on the phone I dropped the Smith took up and aimed my underfolder MAK 90 and jacked a round into the chamber. He immediately wet himself, ran, and jumped through the dining room window and escaped. I’m still waiting on the police to come and take a report on that incident, 22 years later….

    The second time I was alone in the house a few months later making dinner as my wife was visiting her mom with our son. I had been to the range and my 1911 was on the kitchen table as I had not cleaned and put it away. Two guys knocked down my front door and one was carrying some junk revolver the other had a knife of some sort and they were yelling for me to get down….yeah, right. CA does not have a castle law and unless you are “mortally wounded” you may go to prison defending yourself in most cities even in your own home. Anyway, by the time I emptied one mag into my overstuffed chair that happened to be next to them, they had left the way they came in.

    I called the police and because shots were fired, I was held at gunpoint, thrown to the ground, handcuffed, kicked and then arrested buy some 26 year old “hero” who apparently did not realize my family consisted of mostly lawyers and judges in that city. Needless to say, it was not a good couple of months or really years for that boy.

    During the time I was emptying my auto, the knife was dropped and they were able to get prints. In a line up they were pegged as a pair that had been involved in dozens of home invasions and were given, wait for it.................... 5 years at a "vocational Institute"!

    Where I live now, their fingerprints on my doorknob “can” legally send them to hell. But because of that, I may hear of one home invasion every three to four years at most in this state.

    Don't forget, we have Warren vs. DC here in the US and law enforcement uses it all the time in specific states.
     
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