1. Are you a current member with account or password issues?

    Please visit following page for more information

    Dismiss Notice

This should be required reading

Discussion in 'The Breakroom' started by kertap75, Jan 16, 2014.

  1. tmedina

    tmedina EDC Junkie!!!!!

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    6,108
    Likes Received:
    7,732
    Oh hell - our standards are slipping. Whose turn was it to yell "git yer hands off'n my rights!"? THC? I did it last time.
     
  2. T.H.Cone

    T.H.Cone I am senor Fluffy, hear me roar

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    10,909
    Likes Received:
    90,881


    LOL, Tmedena, I think everyone knows where I stand on these issues.

    To Pduds point, speaking only for myself, I'm not anti-police. I am, in fact, very pro-police. I'm totally a rule of law guy. I like an orderly existence. I'm also a strict Constitutional Libertarian, so I do feel like my respect for them should be reciprocated.

    At the end of the day though, I do think I was born a free person and, as such, I expect to be left alone unless I'm hurting another or otherwise violating their own ability to be free. It's pretty much that black and white to me.

    And, yes, we are all friends here, so things almost never spin out of control and on those rare times when they do, we just hug it out after the dust settles.
     
  3. UCChris

    UCChris Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    842
    The cops around here are very nice. Down to earth people. I don't know that I have ever seen or heard of one just throwing their weight around to be a jerk.

    Although, I do fear the day that we have to protect ourselves from the "rule of law"
     
    T.H.Cone and groovster like this.
  4. blacmud8

    blacmud8 Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    923
    Likes Received:
    1,674

    Whilst I haven't been involved in this specific discussion, I think sometimes I say things that elsewhere might invite dribble such as these comments. Thankfully, growing up in England, living in Wales for a few years, and now having move to Scotland, the charge of being 'Un-American' bounces off my European self harmlessly.

    If anyone want's to read a social history text that goes over the historical process of something of a regime of law and order in society(ies), I would recommend 'Discipline and Punish' by Michel Foucault. Very interesting and extremely thorough look at the development of the prison system and forms of punishment, and the development of the idea of individuals as abnormalities to be corrected and controlled by governments, and so on.
     
  5. hunter s gatherer
    • In Omnia Paratus

    hunter s gatherer EDC Junkie!!!

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Being a typical Yank, I copped out (no pun intended) on the read and saw the movie: Scared Straight.
     
    T.H.Cone likes this.
  6. Kilted1

    Kilted1 Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2011
    Messages:
    2,503
    Likes Received:
    1,899
    You might want to check your local regs. In some jurisdictions that folding handle may qualify as an assault horn. ;)
     
  7. indigo_wolf

    indigo_wolf AKA Breezy

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,981
    Likes Received:
    8,225

    I think it's fine as long as you take the required tactical assault horn training class. :D

    Update: The featured product on this evening's Staples ad was.... bull horns. I giggled a little. :giggle:

    ATB,
    Sam
     
    Last edited by indigo_wolf, May 1, 2014
    RoadWizard, T.H.Cone and Kilted1 like this.
  8. T.H.Cone

    T.H.Cone I am senor Fluffy, hear me roar

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    10,909
    Likes Received:
    90,881
    I miss Mayberry.

     
    Lou_G, SAKplumber and snaplok like this.
  9. CSM-101
    • GITD Manix 2XL Owner
    • In Omnia Paratus

    CSM-101 EDC Junkie!!!!!

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    2,730
    Likes Received:
    18,042
    :(
    ... Speechless.
     
    SAKplumber and T.H.Cone like this.
  10. hunter s gatherer
    • In Omnia Paratus

    hunter s gatherer EDC Junkie!!!

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    With as much "progress" as we have made as a Western civilized society and policeman to the world, why am I feeling the need to move to a place where the cattle outnumber the humans? The spring of the Great Experiment begot by our founding fathers winds ever tighter.
    It's gonna bust one these (insert your timeline) just as all empires have. Find your Blue Zone.
     
    T.H.Cone likes this.
  11. snaplok

    snaplok Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    May 15, 2013
    Messages:
    325
    Likes Received:
    1,033
    I have noticed that there is a moral superiority issue with some in law enforcement. Everyone is a criminal, except the ones in blue.

    I'm jaded being born and spending the last 44 years in NYC. I've witness a lot of the corruption and the good of the NYPD. So I do know there's really horrible cops out there and some good officers as well. You can blame ex-Mayor Bloomberg for giving police officers authority to violate constitutional and civil rights, another one of the nanny policies that were initiated in the 12 years he was in office. Along with strict gun laws( the criminals get to have them), surveillance cameras reaching London proportions, random bag checks on the subways, bomb sniffing dogs at the ferries, Stop and Frisk, and the data mining of people stored in a central database that were innocent but could possibly be guilty at a later date. I can say this, what some of you carry freely where you are would get you felony charges here. Try explaining to NYPD that the ti prybar in your bag is not so you can break into homes and cars. Here you're guilty until proven innocent and you have to fight to prove your innocence.
     
    groovster, T.H.Cone and kertap75 like this.
  12. indigo_wolf

    indigo_wolf AKA Breezy

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,981
    Likes Received:
    8,225

    Issuing the arrest warrant for resisting arrest weeks after the fact smacks of a bureaucratic reprisal.

    It leaves me wondering if Monterey is one of those municipalities where drive's license lookup can be done based on address and if so, why this wasn't done prior to arrival at the scene. If it is, it seems like a lot of nonsense could have been avoided.

    Reading the various articles it seems like the incident was handled poorly and everything that followed was a case of spin doctoring.

    Something very similar happened to me while I was visiting my parents, a neighbor reported that someone on a motorcycle was seen repeatedly entering my parents' home with a backpack and leaving shortly afterwards (I was in the midst of running a slew of errands that day).

    Two police officers were dispatched to the house. It was a safe assumption that i wasn't armed as I was in the midst of taking a shower to cool off and had to answer the door soaking wet with a towel around my waist. Forgot what I had to do to convince them that I belonged there, but it was a fairly short interaction and no one laid a hand on me.

    ATB,
    Sam
     
    Last edited by indigo_wolf, May 22, 2014
    Lou_G, groovster, SAKplumber and 2 others like this.
  13. T.H.Cone

    T.H.Cone I am senor Fluffy, hear me roar

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    10,909
    Likes Received:
    90,881
    What can I say, I watch a lot of Reason YT.



    I heard on local talk radio that 91% of NJ drivers currently wear the seat belts and that the alleged goal is for this Click it or Ticket is to get that number to 92%. Why don't we not bother wasting the resources on this and just let Darwin take care of the 9%? It's a simple way to cull the herd, no?

    Penn Jillette famously said two things, "That to be a Libertarian, you have to be able to step over people in the gutter." and "Freedom means the Right to be stupid."

    The video makes the point that the majority of violent crimes go unsolved, so maybe the limited resources available could be put better to a better use.
     
    Last edited by T.H.Cone, May 23, 2014
    Lou_G, Kilted1 and kertap75 like this.
  14. kertap75

    kertap75 EDC Junkie!!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    6,492
    Likes Received:
    19,872
    It doesn't seem to make sense does it? But it makes better sense if you look at a few possible alternative motives besides the safety of non seatbelt wearers. For instance, how much money does the government make by solving violent crime? How much money does the government make from tickets?
    And while they have you stopped for your seat belt I wonder what else they might find?
    I realize that this is a cynical way to look at the world but I never believe anyone's motive any more. Government, corporations, charities, etc. When the claimed motive doesn't make any sense and all of the actions being done actually support a more "sinister" motive than what are we supposed to believe?
     
    snaplok, Kilted1 and T.H.Cone like this.
  15. kertap75

    kertap75 EDC Junkie!!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    6,492
    Likes Received:
    19,872
    Okay, just watched the video (had to switch to tapa talk, my browser wouldn't play it) and it made must of the same points I did without the need for a tinfoil hat lol.
     
  16. T.H.Cone

    T.H.Cone I am senor Fluffy, hear me roar

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    10,909
    Likes Received:
    90,881
    Cui bono?

    So, I wear Charhartt bibs to work and I'm often truly filthy at the end of my workday. Most times, I slip into a kilt and a clean, dry top and drive home. Occasionally, I'm just too tired to care and if the seat of my bibs are not too awfully bad, I'll not change out of them. When I do this, to stop any crud getting on my seatbelt, I'll pass it through behind the bib. This obscures most of it except the part over my shoulder- which is easy to confuse with the bib strap- and the las few inches that connect to the locking mechanism.

    Now, near the end of my commute, the highway necks down to a single lane right past a traffic light. This almost always causes a big jam as people try to zipper. So a couple of months ago, I'm creeping toward the light with the belt run under the bibs and as I start to pass a cop who already has someone pulled over on the side of the road, he exits the patrol car and start to walk back to that motorist.

    Now, I'm literally right next to him but I'm going so slow that he is walking faster than me and is soon a few feet in from of my truck. But before he gets to the other already pulled over car, he abruptly turns around and makes a beeline to my passenger window all the while giving me the signal to roll down my window.

    Now, I have roll up windows in my work truck and because I'm strapped in, it is a long, difficult reach. I'm further hindered but the fact that the passenger floor is littered with sweatshirts, rain gear, PPE, and an EDC bag- not to mention my big 'ol lunch box on the passenger seat- so I only manage to get the window 3 or so inches down before he is right at the window.

    Then he says, "Oh, I see that you're buckled in, never mind", the abruptly walks away to deal with the car he already has pulled over.

    Years ago, that seat belt ticket used to be given instead of something that was going to give you points or jack up your insurance rates. Now they just do it for sport.
     
    Lou_G and kertap75 like this.
  17. indigo_wolf

    indigo_wolf AKA Breezy

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,981
    Likes Received:
    8,225
    Realistic more than cynical.....



    Elsewhere....



    One North Texas Officer Says Ticket Quotas Do Exist…And It May Be A Ticket To A Trophy

    By Jack Douglas Jr. and Jason Allen​
    May 20, 2013 10:23 PM​

    FORT WORTH (CBS 11 NEWS) - The sound of the siren. The lights in your mirror. You know the feeling …and you know what’s next.​

    No one likes to be pulled over by police for a traffic violation.​

    Some of you might even argue that you weren’t speeding … or you didn’t run that traffic light. You could have sworn your blinker was on when you made that turn.​

    But what if you knew what the I-Team has learned.​

    We have obtained internal Fort Worth Police Department memos that show some officers who are part of a special enforcement program – funded by a federal grant and administered by the state — must make at least four traffic stops an hour.​

    It is against the law in Texas for police to have a traffic ticket quota. But a veteran Fort Worth officer, who spoke to the I-Team on the condition that he remains anonymous, says the Fort Worth PD runs a quota system anyway.​

    “That’s how the Fort Worth Police Department tries to get around the quota system …they don’t come out and say ‘write four citations,’ they say four “contacts,” the officer told the I-Team, adding: “But the officer working the grant knows what “contact” means.”​

    The FWPD is one of numerous law enforcement agencies in Texas that participate in the Selected Traffic Enforcement Program, also known as STEP.

    The Dallas Police Department’s recent step grant is reportedly worth nearly $1 million. But when the I-Team repeatedly asked Dallas police about whether they have a quota on ticket writing, they simply did not respond.

    However, we obtained exclusively several Fort Worth police internal memos, including one that says, “Our contractual agreement with the state of Texas is that officers will make four traffic contacts per hour. Performance at this level is paramount to maintaining the grant.”

    An older police memo said the “law enforcement objective” for the STEP grant program was to increase speed citations by 14,250; DWI arrests by 200; safety belt citations by 975 and child safety seat citations by 100.

    Police patrol officers who participate in the STEP program are paid overtime, which is funded by the grant.

    The three officers who write the most tickets by the end of the grant period “get a trophy and a letter of appreciation for being the top producers,” the veteran officer told the I-Team.

    Fort Worth Police Chief Jeff Halstead initially agreed to be interviewed, but he cancelled only hours before the meeting was to begin.​

    The department said the police chief could not address our questions about a quota system because of pending court cases against several officers accused of falsifying information on traffic tickets.​

    The Texas Department of Transportation also declined to be interviewed on camera and, instead, issued a statement. In part, it said, “At no time does TxDOT require an individual officer to issue a specific number of citations during any specific enforcement period.”​

    That explanation was not good enough for lawyer Trent Lofitn, a former Tarrant County prosecutor, who said a quota system on the issuance of traffic tickets “is a disruption of your liberty.”​

    “Let’s say he has to do five or six stops per hour. What if during that time nobody is breaking the law? What’s he going to do, pull somebody over just to make a quota,” Loftin said.​

    After stepping out of his lawyer’s office, hoping to take care of a speeding ticket he does not think he deserved, Carl Holmes of Fort Worth said he wondered if he may have been a “victim” of a police quota system.​

    “That (bleep) me off actually,” said Holmes. “If what you’re investigating turns out to be truthful …the department needs to take a look at rectifying and fixing that problem – not just for my sake, but for everybody who comes through Fort Worth,” he said, adding:​

    “Because it will be looked at, people are going to take notice of it and probably make some noise.”​

    ATB,
    Sam
     
    Lou_G and T.H.Cone like this.
  18. CSM-101
    • GITD Manix 2XL Owner
    • In Omnia Paratus

    CSM-101 EDC Junkie!!!!!

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    2,730
    Likes Received:
    18,042
    The seat belt thing reminds me of something Dave Barry once wrote:


     
    kd7dvd and T.H.Cone like this.
  19. indigo_wolf

    indigo_wolf AKA Breezy

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,981
    Likes Received:
    8,225
    Yeah.... been there, done that. Got ticketed for passing in what was purported to be a no passing zone. It was...most definitely a passing zone.

    Ticketed at night by office sitting way back on a side street.

    The police report stated that I passed between Landmark X and Landmark Y. I went back in daylight hours to confirm. Surprise!!!:eek: Between the two landmarks listed on the police report, there was a total of 10-12 passing zones.

    I was give a choice of missing more days from work to fight the ticket or plead guilty to a no seatbelt citation. Justice dispensed at the cash register.

    ATB,
    Sam
     
    Lou_G, SAKplumber and T.H.Cone like this.
  20. T.H.Cone

    T.H.Cone I am senor Fluffy, hear me roar

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    10,909
    Likes Received:
    90,881
    Well, I have a perfectly clean driver's license and spend most of my time in the slow lane trying to maximize my trucks MPG- "Little Pink" doesn't like to go fast- and I always wear my seatbelt. I also always wear a helmet when I ride a bike- motorized or otherwise. And because I can't be bothered carrying too many pairs of glasses, I wear my prescription safety glasses all day until I get home and get showered.

    I'm Mr. Safety for Pete's sake and, besides that, I already have a mom... I don't need big brother to live my life for me, especially if the real motive is to feed the levitation.

    Years ago, when I first started going to NH for motorcycle racing at Loudon, my group got pulled over on the way back to the hotel because some of them were riding with helmets, but without eye protection. So, it's fine to ride without a helmet, but not without glasses.

    So, we're more worried about a bee in the eye than traumatic brain injuries?

    Here's the thing, I always wear mine- full face too because I'd like to continue to be able to chew my own food- but I don't give a rip if anyone else does; and neither should the state.
     
    Lou_G, CSM-101 and kertap75 like this.