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Stressfire training drills

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by warren55, Jun 28, 2010.

  1. warren55

    warren55 Empty Pockets

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    There's been a lot of interest in "run-and-gun" type shooting.

    As a state public range safety officer, I have to curtail people from doing dangerous activities, and moving while shooting is fraught with problems. A negligent discharge could endanger not only the shooter, but bystanders as well.
    One cannot predict which direction the muzzle will point during a trip or fall.
    Also, while this looks good in action movies, it really doesn’t teach much, after all if you stop moving to shoot, it’s no different than shooting at a target range. Unlike the popular Youtube videos, operators on a protection detail continue to move to cover or escape while engaging the threats. Something you do not want to try with real guns. All our practice and training, in this style, is with Simunitions, not live ammo.

    In a gunfight you have approximately three and a half seconds to identify your target, assess the background, draw, aim and fire. This is more of a cognitive/recognition skill.

    What if I told you that there is a training exercise that will, not only get your heart rate up, but tax the limits of your overall abilities with a firearm, without moving from a 3x3 foot square. If you master it you will be one of only a handful of people in the world that have succeeded. It will frustrate you, enrage you, test your hand eye coordination, and mental cognitive levels. This style of training could save your life in a real gunfight.

    Please bear with me as it’s easier to see this than to type it.
    This game is based on an actual psychological test on cognitive/phonological awareness.
    The object of the game is to quickly identify and engage the correct target.
    You can shoot this game with a pistol, rifle or shotgun (with slugs).

    I usually set up 3 targets at 7, 15, and 25 yards, using 3 lanes of a target range, which allows other people not in the group to shoot. The active shooter in the middle lane.

    The first stage, (easy/warm up) targets have a 6 inch red circle, a green square, a yellow rectangle, and a blue square.

    [​IMG]

    Each of the three target frames has this same target.

    The shooter stands for one round, then kneels for the next and then shoots rollover prone at these 3 targets, two shots (double tap) at each shape. Fastest time / most hits wins. A shot timer can show improvements in split times as well as record each shot string.
    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=772064
    A variation of this game mandates the shooter use cover, a mailbox, a wall, an automobile…

    This is where it gets interesting. The “coach” (a non shooter) gives the command to fire on a specific target. Such as “Triangles”, the shooter then engages each triangle on the three target frames. Then the coach calls out “Red”, the shooter must hit every red shape, and so on, the coach, mixing up the colour/shape commands.

    The second stage gets a different target.
    [​IMG]
    The shoot commands vary by colour, shape, and now number.

    The third stage gets 3 different targets.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Again the shoot command varies colour, shape and number.

    I make them up on newsprint paper from a hobby store using a stencil and spray paint or you can buy these targets at Law Enforcement Targets, Inc. http://www.letargets.com/index.php


    Another game that we often tease rookie police with is the Tueller drill.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
    The Tueller Drill is a self defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.
    A silhouette target is placed 21 feet in front of the shooter. A non-shooter is placed 21 feet behind the shooter. On the shoot command, the non-shooter runs towards the shooter and gently taps him on the back. The shooter, at the same time must, draw and engage the target before the non-shooter touches him. Shots before the touch and the shot placement is the score.

    These simple drills can really show how proficient you are with firearms.
     
  2. Pointman

    Pointman Loaded Pockets

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    Thanks again for the post...great training drills... will definitely give them a shot.
     
  3. concho

    concho Loaded Pockets

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    Good ideas for training. Thank you.
     
  4. warren55

    warren55 Empty Pockets

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    I was training with some DEA guys, and learned this from them.

    I've seen people get so upset after shooting this that they go sit in the truck.
    It's all about how fast you can identify and get on target.
    Not for the squeamish, it's a humbling experience.
     
  5. warren55

    warren55 Empty Pockets

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    I had the opportunity to play a new (to me) shooting game with some SRT guys.
    I was using a 9mm Colt sub gun (AR-15) on semi-auto, also a Glock 22.
    With 3 IPSC type targets at 25yds, I was told to engage each target with 2 shots each as fast as I could. Timed with a PACT timer.
    The targets had a 3x4 inch index card taped to the center.
    Only hits on the card counted.

    Try it sometime, a real rush, especially with competition and others watching.

    Train safe.......
     
  6. USMCsniperSEAL

    USMCsniperSEAL Empty Pockets

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    I like to use a deck of cards. The reason is its simple to use just staple them to your target for a easy set up. And you have a ton of commands that can be called like suits, evens, odds, reds, blacks, etc. Also if you are calling out the shot combo for multiple shooters have the cards put up randomly like one person has more reds than the other. And also put them on there sideways and sticking out behind other cards to increase difficulty of the shot.
     
  7. warren55

    warren55 Empty Pockets

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    Wow! Yeah, that would make me crazy...

    I've always had performance anxiety when shooting in front of a group. Games like these really help.
    Thanks for the tip!
     
  8. Boy SureFire

    Boy SureFire May The Bridges I Burn Light The Way

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    Not to go all Dr. Phil on you, but how does someone with prevously/publicly stated mental health issue become a "state public range safety officer"? If this is to OT, or you'd preffer to discuss this in private/not discuss it period please forgive me. I hope you don't mistake this as a flame, but having known people with issues that had problems getting hired I'm a bit surprised....
     
  9. Tradecraft

    Tradecraft Banned

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    warren55 - where do I start with your post...For what it is worth I have been a law enforcement firearms instructor, defensive tactics instructor, force-on-force instructor and have written numerous training programs on firearms.

    "There's been a lot of interest in "run-and-gun" type shooting."

    Technically, this is called moving and shooting which has proven to be a necessary skill when involved in a gunfight. Without the skill to be able to effectively shoot and move you will not be an effective gunfighter.

    "As a state public range safety officer, I have to curtail people from doing dangerous activities, and moving while shooting is fraught with problems. A negligent discharge could endanger not only the shooter, but bystanders as well."

    What you are really saying here is that unskilled people should not engage in such activities. I don't disagree that unsafe individuals should not engage in dangerous activities but then how do they acquire such needed skills. Despite what many trainers and administrators believe, people can learn to shoot and move with muzzle discipline and trigger control in a safe manner.

    "Also, while this looks good in action movies, it really doesn’t teach much, after all if you stop moving to shoot, it’s no different than shooting at a target range. Unlike the popular Youtube videos, operators on a protection detail continue to move to cover or escape while engaging the threats."

    Shooting and moving DOES teach a lot. Specifically it teaches someone to avoid becoming a bullet trap which I tend to define as a benefit. Protective Security Details is a specialty that cannot and should not be generalized to all types of gunfights. One axiom that I firmly believe is that: In the absence of cover, movement is your salvation. Knowing how to shoot and move is a critical lifesaving skill that does teach a lot.

    "In a gunfight you have approximately three and a half seconds to identify your target, assess the background, draw, aim and fire. This is more of a cognitive/recognition skill."

    I find this comment to be a generalization rather than substantiated fact. You have as much time as the assailant allows you to properly defend yourself.

    "What if I told you that there is a training exercise that will, not only get your heart rate up, but tax the limits of your overall abilities with a firearm, without moving from a 3x3 foot square. If you master it you will be one of only a handful of people in the world that have succeeded. It will frustrate you, enrage you, test your hand eye coordination, and mental cognitive levels. This style of training could save your life in a real gunfight."

    This is a good DRILL but it is far from the training panacea some claim it to be. To prevent a long winded diatribe on this drill I would say that the main benefit is developing target identification. A very necessary skill when involved in a gunfight. I think it falls very short on provoking physiological and psychological reactions to stress that adequately simulate a real gunfight. The use of Non Lethal Training Ammunition such as Simunitions is much more effective for "stress" training.

    Just some of my thoughts for what it is worth. Train hard and stay safe.
     
  10. shrap

    shrap Loaded Pockets

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    You've posted an interesting drill for target acquisition and firing under stress, but it doesn't have anything to do with "running and gunning" which was your concern in the first place.
     
  11. warren55

    warren55 Empty Pockets

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    Wow....You're way beyond what I've done, I'm usually the guy in the back of the classroom.
    Seriously, anything you can add that will encourage safe, responsible training is more than welcome.


    I doubt anyone here needs to be a "gunfighter". The majority of people here will never be in a shooting situation. If they believe they may be in danger, then they need proper instruction at a shooting school, not something they saw in a video.

    "As a state public range safety officer, I have to curtail people from doing dangerous activities, and moving while shooting is fraught with problems. A negligent discharge could endanger not only the shooter, but bystanders as well."

    What I'm saying is without the proper supervision and facilities, no one should attempt to run with a loaded firearm.

    I've stopped people from doing this on public ranges. The popularity with the war has increased the wanna-bees. The people that give me the most trouble usually spout numerous credentials why they should be allowed to continue. I see too many snipers, operators, mercenaries and instructors at the public range "sharpening their skills while waiting for deployment". If they were what they say they are, then they would have better facilities than the public range to train on.


    "Also, while this looks good in action movies, it really doesn’t teach much, after all if you stop moving to shoot, it’s no different than shooting at a target range. Unlike the popular Youtube videos, operators on a protection detail continue to move to cover or escape while engaging the threats."

    If you look at the "run and gun" Youtube videos, you would see that there is no quality, thought, or value to the antics of these people. They like to dress like a soldier, and that's a big draw to some people.
    To "avoid becoming a bullet trap " you need to have proper instruction, you should know that more than anyone else. Untrained/unskilled individuals making up training scenarios on their own without the proper supervision and facilities are dangerous to themselves and others. As an instructor you can plainly see that this type of training is contrary to what you have been taught. Not only is it dangerous, but not done correctly will reinforce wrong/bad techniques.

    "In a gunfight you have approximately three and a half seconds to identify your target, assess the background, draw, aim and fire. This is more of a cognitive/recognition skill."

    What ever time you have, you need cognizant skills, these shooting games I've outlined can help sharpen that in a safe, controlled manner that anyone can do without the inherent dangers of moving.
    Again, if you listen to the Youtube videos, you'll hear all kinds of excuses for poor shooting, it seems the running was the most important part of their exercise.

    "What if I told you that there is a training exercise that will, not only get your heart rate up, but tax the limits of your overall abilities with a firearm, without moving from a 3x3 foot square. If you master it you will be one of only a handful of people in the world that have succeeded. It will frustrate you, enrage you, test your hand eye coordination, and mental cognitive levels. This style of training could save your life in a real gunfight."

    Well, from what I have been exposed to, the DEA seems to think it's worthwhile.
    Non Lethal Training Ammunition such as Simunitions are not available to those not affiliated with law enforcement, at least here in Georgia, Glock only sells their blue 17T to law enforcement departments not individuals.
    "I think it falls very short on provoking physiological and psychological reactions to stress that adequately simulate a real gunfight."
    Of course it does, but the only way most people can get to do this is under careful supervision, at the proper facility. Or play paintball.....

    I'm trying to share a safe, way that anyone can participate in and maybe learn some shooting skills. The main topic I have stressed is supervision, at the proper facility. There are so many shooting schools around the country that teach all kinds of disciplines. A public or club range is not the place to try this.
    As an instructor in many of these intense disciplines, I'm sure you agree, that no one should try to do this on their own.
     
  12. warren55

    warren55 Empty Pockets

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    First, getting the needed help is not the same as being institutionalized. There's a big difference!
    Anyone committed to a mental institution can not purchase a firearm.
    I got professional help to deal with my anger issues, also my father passed away and, as such, no longer berates me.

    In most law enforcement positions there is psychological testing that must be passed.
    It took 18 months of supervision before I was allowed to interact with the public on my own in an official way.
    There's always a rookie/experienced officer trial period to learn interactive skills, whether or not mine was longer or shorter than others is moot, because now, they trust me to do the right thing.
    Not only am I scrutinized by my supervisor, word gets back to him on what I do and how I act. I'm told several people, citizens, actually have found him to say I'm doing a good job.
    There re so many checks and balances that I must put into practice all the coping skills and psychological tools I was taught.

    Getting professional help has made me a better person, someone that others see in a good way, and I can see the difference in how people interact with me. It's really black & white. I still find it hard to believe that people come to me for advice, that before, wouldn't give me the time of day.

    Hope that answers your question, maybe the people you know that had problems getting hired were not completely honest with themselves or others that their issues were resolved or under control. I know I had to prove myself everyday before I was accepted. It's very hard to do. Geeze, sometimes I want to hand someone their teeth, but I have to smile, listen, and help them through their problem. I still take everything personally, and have a hard time confronting belligerent people. It's just mores stuff to learn to deal with and overcome. There are all these "tools" to use, it really makes me happy when I find something that works and completely defuses the situation. It's like a magic trick.

    PM me, if you want and we can talk some more.
     
  13. Patriot222

    Patriot222 Empty Pockets

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    Warren, apart from the interesting drill that you've shared, the main problem I see with your initial post here is the inherent ambiguity when stating "youtube videos." Internet videos run the full gambit from foolishness to professionalism, so your original post contradicts the record of hundreds of safely run IDPA, USPSA events in the US every day. Rather than suggest any "youtube" video is a demonstration in unsafe firearms handling, give us a link for one that you personally find unsafe and then comment on it specifically.

    As Tradecraft correctly stated, your drill while neat, can't replace the training needed for other important shooting practices.
     
  14. solocanoe

    solocanoe Empty Pockets

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    it's a good drill, there's lots of good ones. safetly is important as is checking what's allowed whereever you shoot.
    thank goodness we have so many now carrying and shooting!
    but it IS sad that so many don't try to go beyond "50 rounds at x # of yards", (on flat, static targets etc...)

    I still (25+ yrs later) hear my DI yelling:
    "shoot and move, soldier...dive, tuck, roll, and shoot again! Or try not to leave your corpse in your $%*#-ing buddy's way!"
    of course, many further schools built on that little rant of his...but it always stuck with me. :)

    For what it's worth...most of the poplular weapon platforms can now be had in airsoft...rifle and pistol.
    good training replacements and everyone can put on their kneepads and really practice true shooting and moving, etc..
     
  15. warren55

    warren55 Empty Pockets

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    I did speak in generalities in regard to using the words "Youtube videos".
    This stems from a heated discussion I had concerning the safety of running specific shooting drills.
    I was concerned when I read that the group intended to emulate"Nutnfancy's "Run 'N Gu n" with 10/22s"

    The text read..."In fact, what we are doing is something almost identical to this (I know 2 of the guys who planned the whole thing are big fans of this guy):"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at8hY15dnNc
    or
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Nqj3dRcsE

    As it was fresh in my mind and this post was actually a suggested replacement for such dangerous practices shown in these and other videos by the same author, I did not think to give proper references.
     
  16. Chocula

    Chocula Loaded Pockets

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    I find this thread interesting because it reminds me of all the computer games I have played. You arent holding a real gun, but you are aiming it at targets that can be camouflaged or disguised or fast moving. I have heard many reports claiming people who play a lot of intense shooting or action games tend to find things (like a person or object in a picture) faster than people who never play such games.

    However, it always seemed to me that the best training for war or killing or surviving is fighting in actual war or killing or surviving. Simulation or very technical training drills are not a safe source of confidence because you lack the experience of know how you will actually think and behave.

    It is one thing to get nervous when your car brakes fail and have the presence of mind to switch to neutral and apply the parking brake. It is completely different when you are hugging a brick wall, wondering where that crazy guy with the gun is hiding and whether or not you should run (and risk getting hit) or wait for him to expose himself (and risk being flanked).
     
  17. warren55

    warren55 Empty Pockets

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    That makes absolutely no sense. No one here should be training for war.

    People that choose to carry firearms should train responsibly to be as proficient as they can.
    They need to think, not react to identify the target, the threat, the background, then take action.
    Studies have shown, countless times, that you will react as you have trained. That is the reason to train so it will instill how to react properly.
    It is in these types of technical drills that instill the need to think before pulling the trigger.
    Only the most careless would mindlessly shoot at paper targets thinking they have garnered the skills needed.
    IDPA, IPSC, and other competitions are necessary to learn proper cover, engaging multiple targets, and rapid shooting techniques.
    The many nationwide shooting schools can and do teach how to react, responsibly.

    Most people are lazy, too self confident, or narcissistic to put the time, effort and money into training.
    To them just carrying the firearm is enough. It's these people who will not have the tools necessary to choose how to react.

    As for war, I would not wish on any one experiences gleaned in Southeast Asia.