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Stopping Power or Magazine Capacity?

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by RedGladius, Mar 15, 2011.

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Stopping Power or Magazine Capacity?

  1. Stopping Power. If I pull my gun, I'm going to hit what I aim at.

    53 vote(s)
    43.8%
  2. Magazine Capacity. I'd rather have the security of a good margin of error.

    42 vote(s)
    34.7%
  3. Other (Tell Me Below)

    26 vote(s)
    21.5%
  1. bpa

    bpa Loaded Pockets

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    Thanks for the suggestion I just reserved it at the SF Public Library. I'll comment after reading it.
     
  2. Erik88

    Erik88 Loaded Pockets

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    FYI, it can be a bit dry in places. Not really intended for entertainment purposes. Let me know what you think.





    wait, they allow PRO gun books in San Fran!!!



    lol, just messing!
     
  3. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    Hi All,

    Some of the comments here deeply concern me. I am well past the 1/2 century mark and have been involved in Emergency Services for 36 of my years having obtained my Emergemcy Medical Technician license at 16 years old (before they changed the certification to 18 years of age). I have been employeed as an EMT, Firefighter, Police Officer, Communications Officer for a Search & Rescue Orginazation, A Search & Rescue Officer, and a Professional Removal Specialist (body snatcher for medical eximiners offices in two counties).

    I have responded to countless shooting calls, some with victims and some without. and of course, picked up & transported many of the deceased ones. Please do not take this out of context, but some of the posters like BPA are way off base. The worst of the worst criminals in places where law abiding citizens can't legally obtain guns are easy for the criminal to obtain them. I am talking about places like Washington DC, New York City, Chicago, ETC...

    As a police officer I am frightened that my lawful and god given right to possess a handgun, and the ability to protect myself and my family, might some day be legislated out of existance. I know Professor Gary Kleck's book, has also been refered to here, it is an excellent book.

    I am an NRA Certified Firearms Instructor, Rangemaster, & Certified Police Armorer. I am pro 2nd Ammendment, and I am in favor of not placing any restrictions on any guns, or magazines. The criminals will always be able to obtain guns, The playing field should always be equal.

    Some of us reside where a multiple threat confrontation (Pack of wolves, Pack of wild dogs, Pack of gang members, or roaming groups of thugs) are the norm, not the exception to the rule. To blindly state that some guns, or Hi Cap Magazines should not be able to be obtained by the law abiding even though they are available to the comon criminals is just plain wrong. To blindly comment that all civilians do not have adaquite traning or shooting abilities is also unfair.

    It as also a fact that criminals fear armed capable victims as opposed to the weak, frail, unarmed victims.

    For all uninformed persons, please get propper training and do not help the law abiding become criminal opportunities and victims.
     
  4. archer

    archer Loaded Pockets

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    You are more right than you realize, criminals like terrorists do not have a very sophisticated train of thought, they understand force on force and will always look for the path of least resistence or the weakest link, in other words they can spot out the weakest pray at a glance.
    They will never intimidate someone who looks like he can give a fight, much less armed in a civilian world.
    Based on pesonal experience, on a number of occasions I have found myself in less than sympathetic circumstances and the plain fact that I was assertive, confident and carried open was enough deterrant that I was not harrased or even approached, for those that doubt then my conclusion is, without a doubt
    IT WORKS.
    Bad guys don't want to F*** with armed, trained citizens!!!!!!
     
  5. jag-engr
    • Administrator

    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
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    There is wide debate about how many of the guns used by Mexican cartels come from the U.S. Numerous U.S. officials has quoted a 90% figure.

    Fox News, who is defintely not unbiased, reports that only 17% can be traced to the US.

    Fact Check does a more thorough analysis and concludes that it may be around 36%, but is very difficult to pinpoint.

    Here's an interesting article about another source Mexican cartels use to get guns.

    Though I can't find a source article right now, the Mexican government cannot account for thousands of guns issued to police and army personnel who were fired, quit, or simply went AWOL. The cartels also use fragmentation grenades and fully automatic weapons that are purchased on the black market.

    The Mexican gun problem is more about Mexican cartels and the Mexican gun market than about the U.S. gun market.
     
  6. greymethod

    greymethod Loaded Pockets

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    Shot palcement > all.
     
  7. Johnnyscience

    Johnnyscience Empty Pockets

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    I'd say shot placement with a hi-cap magazine. I've got an HK P30 in 9mm with 16 rounds...
     
  8. Nickortizzle1035

    Nickortizzle1035 Loaded Pockets

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    i think its a give and take kind of thing. i personally carry a 45 ACP loaded with 180gr Hornady XTP hollow points. i feel that 9 rounds in the gun and 2 extra magazines is more than enough if i ever had to use it. i don't imagine i'l ever get into a epic gun battle where i will need more than 24 rounds. i would rather have something with a little more punch.
     
  9. Ripcode

    Ripcode Loaded Pockets

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    I want both.
     
  10. tonester

    tonester Loaded Pockets

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    i voted other. why not have stopping power with high capacity?
     
  11. kapolani

    kapolani Loaded Pockets

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    I tend to like shot capacity.

    My current favorite is my XD 9mm SC. Great little shooter. Recoil is minimal and follow up shots are smooth and quick. Just got my Utah CCW. MD isn't a Shall Issue state. Only the rich and politically connected get CCW's. At least I can carry when travelling with my family out of the state.
     
  12. Justinicus

    Justinicus Loaded Pockets

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    That's why I moved across the river... The gun-related grass is MUCH greener here in VA!

    I voted stopping power, but then realized I really prefer a compromise. My first handgun was a Kimber Custom 1911. Loved it, and still do, but I can't imagine carrying it if I had other choices. When I got my permit, I also got a Glock 30, "compact" (barely) .45ACP with a 10rnd magazine. For a while, for some reason I never was able to suss out, I got bad at shooting it. It seemed like the recoil was too much for me, and I had problems with follow-up shots. In the intervening time, I'd listened to the ProArms podcast episode 23, "High Quality for your Caliber," if I recall correctly, and took in their collective and considerable wisdom extolling the virtues of the modern 9mm +P loads. So I picked up a Sig P228, a 9mm with a 13rnd magazine. I was able to shoot it much better at first, but before long, my .45 weakness seemed to fade and I was soon equally capable with both. I now switch between the two occasionally. However, I'm feeling the itch for a new gun, and the ProArms podcast episode on the .357 Sig did NOT help matters. So now I'm eying the S&W M&P compact in .357 Sig -- a good compromise, I think, between punch and capacity. Then again, I also would love to have a full-size .357 magnum for home and range.
     
  13. iacchus

    iacchus Loaded Pockets

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    I have carried a P229 in 357SIG for years now. It is a fantastic round. It has great penetrative power (Speer gets 16.5" in ballistics gelatin), and is exceptionally flat shooting.

    125gr Speer Gold Dots give a 616psi ballistic pressure wave, 6 cubic inch permanent cavity volume (ballistic gelatin, FBI method), 45 cubic inch temporary stretch cavity volume (ballistic gelatin), 91% Marshall and Sanow “one-shot stop” rating, and 8.8 sec Average incapacitation time (time from unobstructed hit in the center of the chest until incapacitation for 170 lb male as determined from ballistic pressure wave model).

    The defensive rounds I have tested expand without fail (Hornady, DoubleTap, Cor-Bon, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Silver Tip). I feed mine DoubleTap 125gr 357SIG. 1450fps / 584 ft. lbs. out of a 4"bb. The bullets are Sierra JHP. It is fine ammo. Out of 700 rounds or so, I am yet to have a single issue with it.

    My pistol has 12 in the mag and one in the chamber. I feel thirteen rounds, not counting spare magazines, is a capable amount.

    Here is a nice pic showing expansion of various common defensive rounds:

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Gnarly
    • In Omnia Paratus

    Gnarly Loaded Pockets

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    I've lusted for a Sig229 in .357SIG since I fondled my first one!
    If I ever convert from .357Mag wheelguns,I'll own one like yours.
    Frankly,.357SIG or the Desert Eagle in .357Mag are the only semi-auto handguns I'd consider.JMO.
    That would give me a 'little' and a 'big'!
     
  15. P35

    P35 Loaded Pockets

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    Having a pistol is the first rule. I carry a Sig 239 in 9MM, capacity is 8+1. The 239 is very easy to hide, so it is always with me(where legal). I carry a 10 round reload magazine, on my off side. I do not feel under armed.
     
  16. iacchus

    iacchus Loaded Pockets

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    It is a fine gun. I picked one up w/ 3 magazine and night sights for around $950 new. They can be had for significantly less through Sig's red box CPO program.
    Another nice thing is because of the 10mm case size stepped down to 9mm bullet size, it alleviates most feed issues (although some reports suggest this makes the brass tougher to reload).

    The gun tends to push back into the hand rather than pop upwards like the .40, making it quicker to return to target between shots.

    With aftermarket barrels, tthe P229 can handle .40 and 9mm as well, giving you 3 calibers in a single pistol.


    The Desert Eagles are interesting guns, but I am not the biggest fan of the 50AE. The 45 Super offers similiar ballistics and can be fired from an HK USP or the venerable Ruger P90 (in my opinion, much more reliable platforms). For a real 50 caliber, I prefer the 50 S&W.
    The Desert Eagles are finicky as hell, and if not kept perfectly maintained, suffer from frequent malfunctions (in my experience, shot several and had a friend who sold one he couldn't keep running). The gas operated rotating bolt design is interesting, but not the most reliable (problems similar to early Stoner designs). I can't imagine it being much more reliable in .357 than it is in .44 or .50 AE.

    For my money, the S&W 50 (or .460, which can handle the .454 Casull and .45LC) or even the Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan are kings of the large caliber handguns.
    Of course, there's always the .357 Automag, but finding one, and then finding the .357 AMP to feed it wouldn't be too easy.

    Still, even with all the problems, major caliber Desert Eagles are fun as hell to shoot, when they run.
     
  17. Bullzaye

    Bullzaye Loaded Pockets

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    I have to take a slight exception to these statements. I have owned 2 Desert Eagles, an early .357 model, and a later .44 Magnum model with 10" barrel, and also shot a friend's early alloy-framed .357 Magnum. I have never fired a .50 AE Desert Eagle, so I can't comment on them. I agree that they're particular about what ammo they digest. They require full power loads to reliably cycle their actions.

    I had tried a variety of different loads and different manufacturers in my DEs. Once I found that a particular loading would function reliably though, it always functioned perfectly. At times, I have allowed many of my firearms to become extremely dirty, so as to know what to expect from them. I never once had a Desert Eagle fail to function no matter how filthy it had become, so long as I was using ammunition that I had already determined was reliable in that weapon.

    In short...IMHO & IMPE, the Desert Eagle is a well engineered firearm that functions extremely well when fed with full powered ammo that has previously been proven reliable in that platform. That having been said...I sold both of my DEs, not because of reliability issues, but because they are simply too large and unwieldy for any use outside of hunting or pure target work. If I require .357 or .44 Magnum performance, I prefer my revolvers.

    Tim
     
  18. iacchus

    iacchus Loaded Pockets

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    Well, my sample size has been 3...two 50AE and one 44Magnum, the rest has been anecdotal evidence from others while complaining about those three at the range. Many other owners seemed familiar with the problems and said as much.

    I freely admit, my sample size is much too small for me to generalize to the production of DEs in total. My post came across as such a generalization, and I just don't have the experience to back up a post written that way. My apologies.
    If I were an armorer and had encountered similar problems in them all the time, that would be one thing, but I am not. I just know some folks with more money than sense, who let me shoot their guns.

    I know that there were several generations of these firearms. Maybe some of the earlier generations had more of the problems than the later generations. If so, it mght be that my experience with the problematic few were early examples, while your experience with reliable examples were from later generations.

    Regardless, no one should take my limited experience with these popular, over-sized pistols as authoritative.
    However, I still stand by my opinion of the 50AE being a less than stellar round.

    As to preferring wheelguns for real major calibers, I am firmly in agreement.
     
  19. Helstar

    Helstar Loaded Pockets

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    I am not a wealthy man so I chose a caliber then built my arsenal around the bullet. Now, I do have other stuff but I stay to stay 9mm for handgun and carbine, 12gauge for shotgun and 7.62X39 for rifle and of course the famous .22 for everyday plinking.
     
  20. Gnarly
    • In Omnia Paratus

    Gnarly Loaded Pockets

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    Agree,iacchus.

    I gave up on any large calibers in any gun because it triggers a return to a flinch problem I've fought since age 11,when an older neighbor & his buddies thought it would be funny to watch the skinny kid shoot...and I had no idea it was a .458 Mag rifle...figgered it was like the Savage 99 in .243Win. that I was used to.Dislocated my shoulder,and got me a thorough cussing,for almost dropping his Safari rifle.

    Lung cancer got him before I got big enough to mash his mouth.

    My largest rifle is a .270WSM,and my largest handguns are the .357 Mags.
    I just try to compensate by practicing for accuracy,and fine-tuning my handloads.