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Self Defense and Knives: Your View?

Discussion in 'Knives' started by robo-rabbit, Feb 22, 2014.

?

What is your view?

  1. Knives are tools, not to be used for self defense

    10.9%
  2. Knives are tools that can double for self defense

    37.4%
  3. Only used as a last-ditch thing

    35.6%
  4. Can be used to deter an attacker

    1.7%
  5. Only use the handle for blunt striking

    0.6%
  6. Forget it. You won't be able to grab it in time.

    5.2%
  7. Other (Please Explain)

    8.6%
  1. neginfluence04

    neginfluence04 Loaded Pockets

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    I choose to carry both a multitool with a decent blade and a razor sharp folder. The multitool is for 99% of my daily task and the folder is for the 1% chance I might need it for defensive purposes.
     
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  2. Dilla

    Dilla Loaded Pockets

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    IMO, a knife is a tool that can be used for self defense. So is a screwdriver or a hammer. I did not say it was the best tool for this...just an tool than can be for this. Having the thing on your side probably does more for you mentally than anything else. Don't let that mental boost get you into trouble with thoughts of ninja skills you don't have...the bad use of a knife cuts both ways when bad decisions are made. I have carried a knife for years and have not had to use it on anything with a pulse. I am thankful for that.
     
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  3. sungame

    sungame Loaded Pockets

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    I totally agree with this.

    ...and this.

    ...and this. Also, I have no training in using a knife as a weapon, and don't intend to get any. Mainly for these reasons:

    I voted for the second option, because, like sticks, cell phones, bottles, chairs, pot lids, fire extinguishers and just about anything else, knives can be used as weapons. But I would do just about anything not to have to resort to that. And by then, it would probably be to late to go for one anyway.

    I have no self defense training, but a total of twelve years of martial arts (note the difference), and I am a firm believer in "the Nike defense". And if running really isn't an option, I guess ten years of capoeira and four years of kickboxing has taught me a couple of other ways to employ my feet (and knees, elbows and hands)...

    EDIT: Cleared up a stupid idiomatic mistake, and removed some redundant spaces.
     
    Last edited by sungame, Feb 24, 2014
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  4. z0mbiSl4y3r

    z0mbiSl4y3r Loaded Pockets

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    I will use ANY implement available to my to defend myself. I have experience in hand to hand combat in the military and fighting civilian side and anything you happen to be holding can be an extension of yourself if you know what you are doing. If someone carries a knife for the sole purpose of self defense and doesn't have much knife experience, they'll most likely either cut themselves or lose the knife to the attacker and they'll gut you.

    I've gone through practice scenarios with my GF, showing her how to get an attacker off long enough to RUN away. You don't stay and fight any longer than it takes to disable an attacker unless you want to kill, be killed, or serve jail time. Once you get them on the run you haul :censored: yourself. I am confident that she can handle most situations, and she not only carries a knife or two on her person for various reasons, she also has a blunt rod on her keychain that is excellent for quick painful jabs. I've already shown her that a palm to the nose is the most effective way to get away and to take that as the first option.

    I guess at the end of the day, it depends on your situation and experience. For the average civilian who's knife experience is of cutting open boxes and rope, I'd say educate yourself in self defense and don't rely solely on your knife.
     
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  5. subwoofer
    • GITD Manix 2XL Owner

    subwoofer Loaded Pockets

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    This is a complex question and doesn't really have a simple answer.

    I would say, out of the choices above, that a knife is a tool and only a tool. It should never be chosen for self-defence. However like any other tool or implement you may have on you, it might become part of your self-defence reaction, just like a hammer, pen, briefcase, anything really.

    One of the more disturbing things to keep in mind is that I'm sure I came across a statistic which said that the knife is the 'weapon' most turned against the original user. Meaning that if you wield a knife, of all weapons, the knife is the most likely one to be turned against you. So consider this, would you prefer to be given a beating or to be beaten and stabbed? I'd prefer to forgo being stabbed if I was attacked.

    This is the same of any weapon being used, the loser often has that weapon used against them, so if you are the one who uses a baseball bat, hammer or knife as a weapon, and you lose (your attacker is stronger, more determined, more skilled), then not only do you lose, but then they use your weapon against you. Not nice.

    The best defence is avoidance, diplomacy or timely retreat. If that is not possible, then drawing a knife should be the very last thing you try, a truly desperate measure when you expect to otherwise be killed.

    In my mind, a knife is about the worst self-defence item you could carry, a whistle or rape alarm would be a far better (non-lethal) first choice.
     
  6. Jby2206

    Jby2206 Loaded Pockets

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    Go watch a Kyle Defoor video on using a knife. If you read Fernando Aguirre's book "surviving the economic collapse" you will find that he is a big supporter of knives for self defense, not as a primary weapon of corse, but as a secondary. He talks about how some people don't even realize they got shot, while everyone knows when they get cut. He also talks about how in close range HTH combat a knife can actually be superior so a gun. If you want to be armed for self defense, I'd tell you to get a handgun, knife, pepper spray, and some training.
     
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  7. z0mbiSl4y3r

    z0mbiSl4y3r Loaded Pockets

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    I'd just like to add that yelling for help rarely works anymore, all it does is bring out every thug with an iPhone to try and put the beating on youtube.
    Disable the attacker and get the eff out of dodge...
     
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  8. MJGEGB

    MJGEGB Loaded Pockets

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    Just curious how many people in this thread have ever been attacked on the street or even been in a fight?

    I honestly would rather have a vast number of other things in my hand if it ever happened again, I can tell you I didn't have time to grab my knife, and a glass bottle broken over your head will not knock you out that is just Hollywood.
     
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  9. Jby2206

    Jby2206 Loaded Pockets

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    I was almost in a fight, I was at the point of having my knife opened but hidden in my pocket. Thankfully I was able to walk away with out any trouble. By the way, a glass bottle full of liquid used in the right way can be very effective.
     
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  10. z0mbiSl4y3r

    z0mbiSl4y3r Loaded Pockets

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    When I was at my first duty station, one of the guys in my unit kept a roll of quarters with duct tape around it in his pocket. I found out why one night when some locals decided to "teach us soldier boys not to date their wimmen". He pretty much knocked out both of them in one hit each. I learned something that night.
     
  11. Cobra 6 Actual

    Cobra 6 Actual Loaded Pockets

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    Yes, numerous fights. Unfortunately, as a young man I had a nasty, combative personality coupled with a fondness for too much alcohol, so I got in lots of fights. Later as a LEO I had many opportunities to wrestle with drunks and people that did not want to be taken to the lockup (go figure).

    Also, as a young man I served in Vietnam as a rifleman, so have, in fact, killed people -- Viet Cong and NVA soldiers. Not hand to hand, mind you, but with rifle fire and hand grenades. This is not something to brag about, but it is what it is. Other combat veterans on the Forum may care to comment. To me, that experience brought home several things: how fragile life is, the learned ability to both be fearful yet continue to complete a task, the strong will to live, the sincere desire to never have to be in that situation again, etc.)

    I even had one guy pull a knife on me when I was a LEO, but before he could do me any damage, my partner 'cleaned his clock' (lesson for stupid perps: always check your six, mate!) Although not actual fighting I have many years of TKD and Hapkido sparring, including ground grappling.

    Now, as an old man I simply want to protect my family.
     
    Last edited by Cobra 6 Actual, Feb 24, 2014
  12. MJGEGB

    MJGEGB Loaded Pockets

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    @Cobra 6 Actual I'm still younger, late twenties, and I feel the same way about just wanting to protect my family. I don't go looking for trouble anymore, but in my youth growing up just outside of Newark I found my share. I'm happy that I have not had the need to take another's life and hope I will never have to. Thank you for your service. Folks wanting to a avoid these confrontations in the first place have the right idea, just don't ever act scared most of the time showing fear is what will get you into trouble in the first place.
     
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  13. bpeezer

    bpeezer Loaded Pockets

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    One time I had a guy pull a knife on me, and another time a guy came at me with a beer bottle. Both times I was glad I had both hands free, because I needed them to stop the situation without hurting the other guy.

    I used to think I was pretty tough, but I've lost enough times in the ring to know that there's always a "bigger fish". I've also won enough times to know that even if you go home the "victor", you'll probably be hurting tomorrow just as much as the other guy. All that training is better put to use avoiding fights.
     
  14. Cobra 6 Actual

    Cobra 6 Actual Loaded Pockets

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    MJGEGB, thanks for the kind words. In another Forum posting, I mentioned two things that you touched on as well: situational awareness (essentially, not having your cranium up your rectum) and what is commonly known as the "cop walk" ... observant, confident, and hands unencumbered (as Bpeezer also noted).

    Those two things have kept me and my family safe many times.
     
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  15. MJGEGB

    MJGEGB Loaded Pockets

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    Cobra you nailed it, sometimes situations can't be avoided but the vast majority can be if you pay attention, think, and display confidence.
     
  16. robo-rabbit

    robo-rabbit Loaded Pockets

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    I know there are escapes to just about anything, but say you found yourself in an esoteric lock laying prostrate and your opponent kneeling by you. I'm saying if you have no other choice and believe he will kill you, a small blade might be the ticket out. I have seen quite a few locks: everyone has a weakness escaping a certain one.

    Basic chokes/hugs are usually easy enough to escape on your own, unless if you are terribly overpowered.

    Mall ninja skills! Quite a few people think it is easy to use a knife in self defense, but... it is deceivingly hard. I know I am not good enough to. Being able to deploy in a split second is not a skill I have.

    As for the boost, it depends on the knife and person. I carry 2" or shorter, and I get no boost. Nor do I when I carry a pen/pencil. Nor do I when I train: training makes you realize just how little you know. I would not carry bigger due to my state's laws and court rulings.

    What is wrong with discussing such self defense scenarios? We are speaking of when we have no other option. Not much different from discussing them on the mat.

    Water-Rat basically said what I was going to say. That and my EDC blade is too small. Try jabbing/cutting different targets with a 2" blade and a good metal pen. The pen is more easily assessable and performs just as well, if not better. You don't even have to get the cartridge tip out either.

    I was waiting for someone to bring that up. Knifes are not a stopping force, they are a killing force. I would choose a baton over a knife any day in a life or death scenario.

    Your first statement is subject to great debate. (MartialTalk has a thread going on Martial Arts Teaching Self Defense)

    Otherwise, I agree. Run forest run! (And make plenty of noise)

    Empty hands is my usual preference as well. Unless if you need to do damage asap.
     
  17. sungame

    sungame Loaded Pockets

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    Just to clarify what I meant: I do believe that almost any martial arts training can be of some value in a self defense situation.


    Still, IMHO, the differences between martial arts training and proper self defense training are many, big and important. Martial arts training probably isn't totally useless when the manure hits the fan, but proper, reality based self defense training (RBSD) is probably much, much better.

    I have discussed this subject over and over with law enforcement officers, RBSD practitioners and instructors and high ranking martial artists from many arts, schools and styles. As you point out, there is a lot of debate over this, and I doubt that you can find two people who totally agree. Also, the subject is a rather complicated one, and I guess I could fill a whole thread with my thoughts on it, but that would be rather off topic, wouldn't it?
     
  18. T.H.Cone

    T.H.Cone I am senor Fluffy, hear me roar

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    Not really.:)

    But even if you don't feel like taking this thread for a ride, maybe start a new one on RBSD because I'm sure we'd all enjoy it.
     
  19. DavyJ

    DavyJ Loaded Pockets

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    Okay, my 2 <insert coins of choice>

    What is meant by defence? Really.

    To me the whole purpose behind 'self-defense' is preservation of one's own life.

    1. In the main the the most obvious and succesful form of self defence is to not be there.
    2. The second most effective form is to create the opportunity to not be there and then apply point 1.
    3. If 1 and 2 are not possible it becomes a lottery where even the most skilful of fighters can suffer catastrophic injury.

    If you are at point 3 expect to be hurt. Anything else is unrealistic

    Knife fighting:
    Rule No.1: If you are engaged in a hand to hand fight involving knives you are going to get cut. Consider this a certainty.
    Rule No.2: See Rule No.1.

    A knife is, in my opinion, a very poor tool for defence. It's a great tool for attacking, but sucks at defending. The only time (again in my opinion) that a knife acts well in defence is when it acts as a deterrent to the intention of your assailant - i.e. they decide that attacking you is not worth it.


    Others may argue that their knife fighting/unarmed fighting skills will keep them safe in a confrontation that escalates into an exchange of blows. They are wrong. Fighting carries a very high risk of injury. No-one is exempt.

    As a vaguely amusing example: I was sparring in a karate (shotokan) class with the instructor. I was, as you can imagine, a bit rubbish by comparison with him. He told me that I couldn't spar wearing spectacles so I took them off even though I am near-sighted. During one supposedly controlled exchange of blow and block, I executed a gyakuzuki (reverse punch) to his midriff. Unfortunately, I stumbled a little on the execution and, coupled with my sight-limited ability to accurately judge the distance, caught him pretty much full on the lower rib. This did not go down too well, as you can imagine.

    Now you could argue that he wasn't much of a fighter for letting a rookie like me lay one on him. However, what I think this illustrates better is that there is a real element of chance in fight situations, even closely controlled ones, and that no matter how skilled you think you are you cannot prepare for everything.
     
  20. sungame

    sungame Loaded Pockets

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    I think anyone with more sparring sessions under their belt than fingers on their hands will agree that in a fight situation, even if you end up winning, there is an overwhelming chance that you will get hit. I have sparred with anyone from total rookies and girls 20kg below my weight, to men close to twice my weight and fighters way above my league. In my experience, even if one of the fighters might totally dominate the sparring, the other fighter almost always gets in at least one hit.

    It is next to impossible to have a totally impenetrable defense. Even the best will slip up some times, be it because of fatigue, lack of attention, overconfidence or just because you cannot block all of the punches all of the time. A beginner can do something "wrong" that totally surprises an experienced fighter. A mediocre fighter with incredible stamina can keep hammering away until he starts wearing down your defense. A physically strong fighter can just power through. And anyone can get lucky.

    All my sparring has been light contact. At least theoretically. Had I sparred full contact, many of these "one hit wonders" could have knocked me out. I do not dare think of what would have been the result if one of the fighters had a knife instead of gloves. "You should have seen the other guy" is a rather poor argument when you're lying bleeding on the sidewalk.

    On the World Wide Web, I have stumbled across the saying "Fight a gun, run from a knife". I don't know about fighting a gun, but I would certainly run from a knife, if I had even the slightest chance. And if I hadn't, I doubt having a knife of my own would do much good.