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SD with a 6 inch stick?

Discussion in 'Personal Security Devices & Self-Defense' started by alfanator, Jun 23, 2008.

  1. alfanator

    alfanator Loaded Pockets

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    I am new to this forum so forgive me; i am a little curious. Are all the folks here that carry around a kabuton, koppo or some sort of fighting magic marker all well trained in martial arts? I am not sure how effective such SD devices will be unless you already know very well the fundementals of the force that it is multiplying and the mindset it takes to use such force.
     
  2. clutchUSMC

    clutchUSMC Empty Pockets

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    I was a Green Belt Instructor in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program, as well as going through the Non-Lethal Weapons Training Package, Basic Security Guard School, and School of Infantry in the service. None of that makes me Chuck Norris, but I can put you in some really fun wrist locks. And I carry a kabuton on my key chain. However I find it more useful as a 6in steel bar for prying, beating, poking, etc. I have much better options (i.e. 1911, OC spray, edged weapons) to use in a fight. However having handcuffed a few people I think it would be a great tool for a LEO, can be used for pain compliance techniques etc.

    Now would it be effective in the hands of a 22 year old woman. I doubt it, unless shes been trained. But that holds true for anything you intend to use to save your life. You wouldn't give your wife a gun with no training, why hand her a kubaton or some OC and expect her to be able to employ it effectively. The most important tool you can have in a life threatening situation is your mind, now if your going to prepare yourself with some sort of EDC, why wouldn't you take the time to learn how to use that equipment?
     
  3. alfanator

    alfanator Loaded Pockets

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    I could not agree more, which is why I am curious if the folks that carry these all trained with them. Where do you get this training?
     
  4. RGNY

    RGNY Empty Pockets

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    many people buy 'tactical toys' with the hope that it will magically put someone down, be it a knife/gun/pen/etc.

    there are any number of wandering self defense gurus these days. some better than others.

    having taken a Southnarc class, i can strongly recommend him. he teaches a no b.s., non 'true believer' system with about three basic moves. the weapons portion can be applied for anything from a CD case to a knife/pen/kubotan/etc. he also travels extensively (worldwide). for firearms, he teaches an extreme close quarters class (0-3 feet) consisting of presentation from the clinch and gun grappling. this is done with FIST helmets and simunition guns (after live fire) and as hard contact as you are willing to take.

    next on my list would be Ray Floro, out of Australia. but i have no personal experience with him, only second hand.
     
  5. temujin

    temujin Uber Prepared

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  6. clutchUSMC

    clutchUSMC Empty Pockets

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    Mas Ayoob offers a kubaton course that is only $75. He teaches it in a few places every year. I have taken the Monadnock baton Instructors course, and found it very useful.
     
  7. RGNY

    RGNY Empty Pockets

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    i hope the Monadnock trainer's course is better than the 8 hour certification course.

    by far the most useless training i've ever received. 8 full hours to teach you essentially 'forehand' and 'backhand' swings. but the state said i had to go.

    our instructors were pretty honest about (their opinion) it being the most unrealistic LEO baton course available, but conversely the most defensible in court, which is why NY went with it.

    just about any FMA weekend seminar will put you miles ahead.
     
  8. CaldingEater

    CaldingEater Loaded Pockets

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    +1 or RAY FLORO and SouthNarc!

    I've trained with Ray for the past few years and he has changed :)censored: woke me up) my game!... much more gross motor skills compared to traditional FMA... i have the Southnarc videos and recommend them as well!... they both teach the Pikal---Reverse Grip Edge In (RGEI) style of defending... Ray is mostly in the medium to long range and Southnarc emphasizes short/CQC

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=t9xJejkInvE&feature=related (Ray)
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Sk7B-XXCJY (Southnarc)
     
  9. 0dBm

    0dBm Loaded Pockets

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    Long ago, I had trained with several instructors ranging from the very traditional to those catering to the military and then to the law enforcers. At my age, I do not advocate the carry of a dedicated kubaton since many municipalities may outright forbid it nor do I support its use without continuous training for several years. I do carry several pens robust enough to function as such, but would not insist that my wife or daughter carry something for that purpose since neither have the training.

    Martial methods depend heavily on muscle memory as a conduit for effectiveness. It takes years to become comfortable with the requisite techniques to adequately defend oneself. Practice a technique for years so that it can be used during a 5-second event.

    My preferred SD method and implement is real estate. Put plenty of it between yourself and the perpetrator of harm and the problem is effectively mitigated to an insignificant level unless there a burning need to demonstrate testosterone-infused proficiency. In that case, spend the time training.
     
  10. VVR41TH

    VVR41TH Empty Pockets

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    As stereotype-driven and probably statistically-incorrect it may be, I'll normally only carry a Kubaton if I'm going somewhere at night. For day to day travel (read: schooling), I'll stick with pens/scissors/fists. As for the OP, my KM instructor has held a couple of seminars on kubaton use that I've attended; that being said, I really doubt I'd ever use it for anything more than as a fist load for hammerfists... pressure points are far too much of a bother for a dark street.
     
  11. temujin

    temujin Uber Prepared

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    We may have chewed on some of the same turf. As I age, my load lightens considerably. A while back, I realized that carrying a dedicated impact weapon is a waste. I already carry a pen, flashlight and a folding knife, any of which can and have served well as implements of attitude adjustment. As you noted, carrying a dedicated weapon can also bring legal complications. More importantly, I use those implements several times a day, whereas I rarely engage in physical confrontation.

    As you contend, using a kubotan and its ilk require some specific training. Without it, one would be better off carrying a rabbit's foot. No weapon or implement is a magic light saber. I have seen fights where unlucky sods have been relieved of their weapons only to have it used on them. This includes knives, baseball bats, and pool cues.

    Also consider that, with the proliferation of MMA and grappling-oriented training, one is quite likely to face someone who wants to close the gap and go to ground with you. If you have never faced such an attack, by all means do all you can to maintain your distance or enjoy dining on the pavement.
     
  12. sabongero

    sabongero Loaded Pockets

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    Start out with the "Pocket Sticks" DVD/video by Ted Lucaylucay. A worthy introduction into small type sticks.
     
  13. RonC

    RonC Empty Pockets

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    i was trained my a Kali instructor. I always have some type of kubaton/impact weapon with me at all times.
     
  14. bouncer

    bouncer Loaded Pockets

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    While a good training program helps you would be amazed at how well hammerfists with a koppo or flashlight to the head will work :lolhammer:

    especially if you see the attack coming first and are ready to respond. Awareness is the key.
     
  15. amboose

    amboose Loaded Pockets

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    true, especially when the skin is spilt open. Surefires like the E2D or kubotans with sharp edges can easily split the skin (not to mention the Surefire Porcupine!). The gush of warm blood is often enough to make the strongest man buckle. Probably the element of surprise is useful for the amateur (like myself), let the predator close the distance and execute the unexpected multiple hammerfist (with the impact-force-multiplier tool) on the skull. Deception can make up for a lack of street experience.
     
  16. James In Toronto

    James In Toronto Loaded Pockets

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    There are courses available that you can take specifically for the Kubotan, and there are books that teach both the police and civilian tactics. There are also short stick techniques in Hatsumi and Chambers classic stick fighting text.


    I know there are a lot of people carrying their keys on sticks like that with no more thought of tactics than pounding on a grabbing hand with the butt end, or flailing away with the keys, but others have studied the techniques and have some idea how to use the things properly, for a given value of "properly."
     
  17. PocketWad

    PocketWad Loaded Pockets

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    I own those two Kubotan resources, and with all due respect to Tak Kubota, for anyone interested in actual self-defense, they're worse than useless. (I'd say your chances of getting attacked on the street by a jumping front kick are only slightly less than your being attacked by a great white shark on the same street.)

    An assailant trying to put his hand on you is a serious problem--it's not a complicated one. To concoct a complicated and lengthy response of the type prescribed by most of the experts puts you in danger. Trying to mess with a wrist lock when someone's got his hand on your throat is absurd. If the situation is serious enough that you feel you have to use a weapon, forget all the pressure-point and joint-locking stuff and strike with the stick to end the threat.

    The martial arts industry is geared toward selling you instruction. And nobody's going to buy anything in the way of martial arts unless it looks cool. A complicated joint lock and takedown with a short stick looks a lot more impressive than a jab to the ribs. When watching a martial art, people expect to see tricks. If you were to put together a book or DVD of the most effective applications of a short stick, it would be too dull for most people to read or watch. There would be no tricks. The idea that you would need to train in a "system" for several years before you could carry a weapon as simple and instinctive as a 6-inch stick is the mindset that protects the martial arts industry.

    In a real encounter, using a weapon "properly" (that is, according to some prescribed system) is of much less importance than using it effectively. My wife carries a Cold Steel Mini Koga on her walks. I'm convinced she understands instinctively how to use it. And she has her mind made up that no one is going to make her a victim. (I believe Peyton Quinn refers to this as perfect intent being more important than perfect technique.) If someone were to approach her on the street and try to take control, her response, I'm sure, would impress no one except the guy with the broken ribs.
     
  18. jackknife

    jackknife Loaded Pockets

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    I think this is so correct.

    There was an article not too long ago, where an elderly lady was sitting in a church pew writing, when some low life looking for an easy victim tried to rob her. In the church!

    The old lady used the pen in her hand to drive off the attacker. She hit hard and kept fighting till the low life ran off. Attitude and something in hand goes a long way.
     
  19. RonC

    RonC Empty Pockets

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    I agree with the last 2 posts. Just a basic hammerfist with a kubaton in hand can be an effective self defense aid. Just add a little martial arts instruction to that hammerfist, and your effectiveness will be greatly increased. Thats how I got my start in Kali. I started with just wanting some basic self defense instruction using the kubaton. Just a little extra knowledge and training on footwork, body movement, deflection of incoming strikes, and striking techniques will make a kubaton a much more valuable self defense tool.
     
  20. sandmountainslim

    sandmountainslim Empty Pockets

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    I am in agreement with these posts also.
    While holds and pressure points are effective if you know what you are doing a simple hammerfist strike to the face, ribs or chest with a kubotan should stun an attacker long enough for you to make a break.
    Wp