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Sanrenmu, Ganzo, Enlan: which one?

Discussion in 'Knives' started by iplaysthedrums, Feb 17, 2014.

  1. Adahn

    Adahn Loaded Pockets

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    Well, I like to buy knives for the locking mechanism, like the CRKT GlideLock 2 (very good letter opener, possible to deploy with wrist action if you use the right lube) and the CRKT Fulcrum (great idea, but I'm not surprised they stopped production). On such knives for letter opening, cutting a bread roll, an apple or a string 8Cr13MoV or such steel is totally enough :)
     
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  2. iplaysthedrums

    iplaysthedrums Loaded Pockets

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    My Cara Cara was 8cr, and it never gave me trouble. I abused that knife for months.
     
  3. MJGEGB

    MJGEGB Loaded Pockets

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    @AK Adventurer you make some valid points and my previous post agrees with a lot of what you say but.

    I feel the heat treat process is often exaggerated. Basically there are recipes for ht of the various steels, they are not trade secrets and if followed the steel should be hardened properly. The steel can then be tempered down to the desired hardness, this process actually softens the steel somewhat so that it won't be brittle. I would imagine that most manufacturers grind pre ht and so the steel doesn't make much if any difference in that process. Some makers do grind post ht not all but some but that is a different story. The big difference is that the newer high end steels tend to require more exact temperatures and timing than older more basic steel, also generally higher temps. This means there is a smaller margin for error but there really is no magic in the ht process except for the transformation of the steel structure into something stable orderly and strong.

    The steel gets more focus than it should, it matters just not near as much as a lot of folks make it out to.
     
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  4. Blerv

    Blerv Loaded Pockets

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    A racing legend can transition from car to car and remain pretty dang fast. Putting a normal person behind the wheel of a race car might end up in a fast lap or a dead driver...flip a coin.

    It's all about trusting the maker. They determine the edge geometry, heat treat, and other factors such as how safe the lock is and how comfortable the ergonomics are. When you pay $30-50 for a knife you aren't simply paying for the materials but the skill that goes into the final product. Is it safe? Does it perform? What's the resale value like? Do you appreciate the company culture and mission statement?

    The knives mentioned in this thread are probably adequate. I'll never buy them but everyone has to make their own decisions in life. This isn't high school anymore for most of us.

    I've seen people knock Al Mar Knives because some of their models use AUS-8. Yea...Moki makes those knives. I'm sure they are just fine (even if the "cool kids" laugh).;)
     
  5. Adahn

    Adahn Loaded Pockets

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    I'm just wondering if ppl who mock on cheapos or china knives or 8Cr and such things are so much thinking about all the other things they buy.
    And if they'd buy a n iPhone instead of a Huawei because of company culture and such which are both Made in PRC...
     
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  6. iplaysthedrums

    iplaysthedrums Loaded Pockets

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    I have an eagle classic from 1992 that my father handed down to me. Easily the best knife in my collection.
     
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  7. ALLHSS

    ALLHSS Loaded Pockets

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    I maintain that 8cr, 440c (ganzo uses it some), and the like are good steels when done well. However, those steels heat treated properly to a set hardness compared to s30v, 154cm or the like (also heat treated right and to a set hardness), you will be able to tell a difference if you use your knife to cut things frequently. That's not to say 8cr etc atr bad, they just are inferior in many ways to some other steels.

    I think well done aus8 is a superb all around steel. Even between makers, however, you can tell a difference (al mar, spyderco, Ontario, cold steel).

    Are navy knives any good?
     
  8. amacman
    • In Omnia Paratus

    amacman Loaded Pockets

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    We're all also assuming that the steel used by these companies are labeled correctly. How are we suppose to tell if a Ganzo is really using 440C as claimed? There are plenty of knives coming out of China that are claiming, that have "titanium" scales or frames, yet magnets stick to them. Other times, they use aluminum with a titanium nitride coating-same as titanium right?
     
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  9. Blerv

    Blerv Loaded Pockets

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    Even the advantages of CPM high vanadium/carbon steels are left to huge disadvantages even compared to properly executed 440c. Impact toughness, corrosion resistance, edge stability (ie ability to get/stay sharp), ease of sharpening, cost to manufacture. In fact, the main advantage s90v has over even 420 falls apart at very low angles due to an apex that's littered with carbides that tear out. It's like comparing thin sheets of granite to obsidian.

    Now, a properly done s90v blade will destroy the average 420 knife but mainly because makers spend more time on a $200 knife than a $15 one (aka they don't set it up for failure).

    You can maintain that certain steels are better but without acknowledging their flaws it's incorrect. Your statement about sensing amongst brands exhibits the variables at play rather than the inconsistency of the composition. The fact that all archaic materials stopped getting produced and very few alloys have been discontinued speaks to this truth.

    Not trying to be a jerk. Not saying AUS8 and 8Cr13Mov are awesome. Just saying they aren't just for idiots and cheap knives. Also saying if you (or anyone) can tell the difference between two knives in casual use where the ONLY variable is composition you need to contact Crucible for a 6-figure salary.

    Also saying a $10 knife with the same tang markings of a $30+ one doesn't mean it's literally the same quality. If so, all those Hinderer fans need to trade for Spyderco Natives.
     
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  10. Evil D

    Evil D Loaded Pockets

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    Gonna have to side with Blerv on this one, if for no other reason than I can't support a product that is a blatant ripoff no matter how cheap the price is. In the tattoo world we have a saying "good tattoos ain't cheap, and cheap tattoos ain't good". I think that saying applies here as well.
     
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  11. ALLHSS

    ALLHSS Loaded Pockets

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    I wouldn't trade my Spyderco Native for an xm 3".

    Again though, anybody here try a navy brand knife? Any impressions?
     
  12. Cujobob

    Cujobob Loaded Pockets

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    You can't simply trust the maker to treat steel properly though but understanding it is fairly complex and it's hard to hold them accountable as consumers. Kershaw is a well known brand with many fans but they don't get enough performance out of their 14C28N or Elmax steels, both of which are stellar performers and quite inexpensive. Chris Reeve gets his S30V/S35Vn to 58-59 which by most standards is quite soft for a quality knife (edge retention has never been a strong point with CRK yet other makers get better performance from the same steel). Obviously, they have to make choices for the masses and many people can't sharpen very well or don't like to do it for long periods so softer steels work better for them. In a $400 knife, one would think those folks would be in the minority. These Chinese companies are heating their 8Cr to 58-59 as well which is fine for the price point. As someone said, there are trade offs with steels otherwise there wouldn't be so many but for most EDC purposes the two I mentioned from Kershaw are some of the best inexpensive steels one can use. Elmax is extremely corrosion resistant and has great edge retention plus I believe takes a finish well. The razor blade steels are all great as well as they resist corrosion and take a keen edge plus sharpen really easily.
     
  13. amacman
    • In Omnia Paratus

    amacman Loaded Pockets

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    Sorry, but I disagree with a couple of your points.

    Elmax is inexpensive? Compared to what? Have you actually looked at prices from steel suppliers? Granted, the retail prices we can check for the steel are MUCH higher than what the large knife makers are paying, but Elmax is still much more expensive than S30V, 440C or anything lesser.

    Chris Reeve only hardens to 58-59? So does Buck, Strider, and Spyderco. Many makers consider 59 to be about perfect for a knife edge to balance edge retention and durability.
    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/769447-Edge-Retentions-of-Spycerco-S30V-vs-VG10-
     
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  14. Blerv

    Blerv Loaded Pockets

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    Well, it seems you have a problem trusting that particular maker. The makers that I trust can knock 8Cr or AUS8 out of the park, blindfolded. If I bought Kerhaws I would probably contribute poor performance to sharpening skills unless I sent it out to have the blade tested.

    I agree with amacman. Part of steel costs is buying the raw product plus any applicable importing expenses, the other is the ease of finishing (accuracy and grinding) which is where high-vanadium carbide steels chew through belts like mutated rats.

    Hardening is specific per blade. If higher is always better then steels like ZDP-189 would be blowing away steels like CPM-110v. Despite the massive amount of crap that Reeve takes for his RC numbers, his blades are very easy to get sharp and don't chip out like some I've seen. My brother cuts way more cardboard than I do and rarely touches up his Insingo.

    Getting a knife sharp and how long it will cut to true blunting is a very different thing. If you can't put an edge on a ZDP-189 knife but reliably can on a 154cm, the technically less wear resistant alloy only is at a disadvantage if you can't sharpen it as readily. Since half of us have pocket stones and crock sticks in our backpacks, 5 swipes a side is far from taxing.
     
  15. Adahn

    Adahn Loaded Pockets

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    Ahm, no offense to anyone, but wasn't this thread about chinese brand knives and not a bar fight about steel?
    We all got it that usually these Co's use 8Cr13MoV, some like it, some not, period.
    Open another "I know the bestest superest steel for knives and I'm a pro in hardening, anybody else is stoopid!!!" or whatever. #sarcasm off#

    So, @cujobob I've seen the SRM M1 on a German website in a dual-colored G10 version and the black polished G10 version on Aliexpress.
    More then double as my ten bucks but still a very nice knife. PM me for links if you like.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  16. ALLHSS

    ALLHSS Loaded Pockets

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    I don't understand how you think its elitist to maintain that a user can tell the difference between low end and high end steels. Certainly, I never was negative about lower end steels, the knives they are in, or the people who like those knives. Can't say the same for everyone else.

    I'm still hoping someone has experience with navy knives?
     
  17. Blerv

    Blerv Loaded Pockets

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    Two of the arguments that were being used:

    * 8Cr13Mov is used for these knives and it is found in knives of higher prices, ie: The steel is the exact same no matter what you pay
    * These knives are made in China by a company that makes knives for other companies, ie: The quality must be the same no matter what you pay

    I have no problem with anyone and their choices in cutlery. I do feel the trend towards pushing prices down and supporting blatant design theft is :censored: and voiced my opinion (but it won't keep me up at night). Personal preferences aside, the above two assumptions are completely false though.

    The shifted conversation of "inferior" vs "superior" steel was off-track, admittedly :oops: , but supported by science and rarely discussed on the EDC Forums. If anything, it decriminalizes the use of less trendy steels. If you would rather, we can all take the stance that anything with 8Cr13Mov is junk and anything with a CPM steel is amazing. That sure makes the discussion less complicated.

    PS: If you want even an easier shopping list don't buy anything from Aliexpress. It makes Dealextreme look like Nordstroms.
     
    Last edited by Blerv, Feb 21, 2014
  18. MarauderX

    MarauderX Loaded Pockets

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    Lol love the dx analogy
     
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  19. Elian_BHZ

    Elian_BHZ Loaded Pockets

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    Over the time i bought more than 15 of this knives with great result.
    Leaving besides the stupid ethics discutions they are great knife for the money.
    The steel is great in the value. Some designs are great and original, another are copied and inspired in some mayor brands.

    Is a matter of choice. You can get one Spyderco Paramilitary 2 or you can get nine of this knives. That is up to you.

    Here some pics of some of them :)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Hope you like them :)
     
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  20. AK Adventurer

    AK Adventurer Ice, Ice, Tigre

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    Try asking @cityofthesouth , he got one and did some custom mods to it a few weeks back. IIRC he wasn't real pleased with the action of the knife, I think he said it was pretty stiff.... But don't take my work for it, I might be remembering wrong... ;)

    EDIT; Aha, found it;
    http://edcforums.com/threads/navy-k-610-modding.118092/
    and here;
    http://edcforums.com/threads/c-o-t-s-edc.110943/page-6#post-1817037
     
    Last edited by AK Adventurer, Feb 21, 2014
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