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Revolver with shrouded hammer

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by HOMELAND SECURITY HAM, Jul 9, 2010.

  1. dmattaponi

    dmattaponi Loaded Pockets

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    I have to agree with some of the others about the Scandium guns. I bought a S&W M&P 357. It was a nice gun, very light, night sight. Felt great in a pocket. I did alright with it at practice with target loads. The problem came with self defense loadings. They were downright painful. I never considered myself recoil sensitive, but I'll admit it was difficult to get through a 5 round cylinder with the M&P. I had read this before buying the gun, but I didn't believe it could really "hurt". I was wrong, and I got rid of it. I much prefer my S&W 642 which is much more management in terms of recoil. I figure it's better to be able to shoot a 38 well, than to have a gun that is a little lighter 357 in the pocket that you dread shooting. Also recommend a Mika pocket holster. It works great, and Robert Mika is great to deal with (I've done so about 5 times). I like the Mika holster because it conceals the gun without printing, it is impermeable to sweat, stays in place in the pocket, and allows for an easy draw and reholster. I've been using my holster since 2003 and it is holding up very well. Oh, I forgot to mention, I have a little older pre-lock version of the 642, which I prefer. I believe S&W has recently made some without the lock, but I haven't checked into their availability.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. JonSidneyB
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    JonSidneyB Uber Prepared
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    There are no ranges I don't think within 60 miles from me. If anyone I know gets one here I will ask to try it out. I am used to trigger jobs on guns so I am a bit spoiled. I do think the 442 and 642 have really gritty triggers out of the box. I wonder if frame flex is doing a good job of dampening recoil on those.

    Possibly one of the reasons I like Smith revolvers so much is that I grew up on them. Dad got me a 6-inch M-17 and M-19 in the late 60s and I grew up with those guns. I had to sell them off about 3 years back, I hated that as they were old friends and from Dad. Having them so long when I tried other revolvers they just didn't feel right to me. To be honest I didn't like shooting 4 inch and 3 inch guns at first as I was so used to the sight radius and the weight being forward.

    I stuck with Smith as I liked the idea of being able to have different configurations yet be the same familiar gun at the same time. I am probably overly biased about it. Smiths to me seem like old friends. I do prefer the older ones with the deep bluing you used to see in the past.
     
  3. solocanoe

    solocanoe Empty Pockets

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    I never go into a gun shop or pawn shop without looking for an old, well - used, deep blued chiefs special! :)
    the stories they'd tell...
     
  4. JonSidneyB
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    JonSidneyB Uber Prepared
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    This is going to sound funny but it is true. I don't mind shooting an M-29 at all, it does not bother me a bit. Heavy .357 loads out of a steel J-Frame do not bother me a bit either, I can manage the recoil from that easily.

    The guns that I have shot that sting the most to me is the NAA Guardian and Scandium guns even with .38+p. That light bit ligher weight seems to make a big difference between it and the 442 642's. The Guardian is a nice little gun but after about three magazines I am through. I know some people that don't mind shooting tiny blowback .32s but can't stand shooting a 640 with full power loads. Recoil perception is a funny thing.

    The .32 gives me the most discomfort followed by a Scandium J-frame.
     
  5. mpi

    mpi Loaded Pockets

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    i haven't bought a new ruger since bill helped bring us the ban! I had a 640 that had been magna-ported and it was fun to shoot, but after shooting it close to my body/strong side, i stopped carrying it. something about having unburnt powder and other grit up my nose and singeing my beard didn't make me feel warm and fuzzy [fuzzier?]
     
  6. mpi

    mpi Loaded Pockets

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    Being a sort of classic guy were guns are concerned i tend to really like my colt snubs quite a bit. one of my favorites is the agent, or cobra. the magnum carry is a great 357 too! most of them needed a trigger job to keep them from getting short stroked in a pinch. of course that's when you usually need them.
     
  7. dmattaponi

    dmattaponi Loaded Pockets

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    I agree. I have no problems with hot loads in a 2 1/4in Ruger SP101, but those Scandium guns are something else, and I think potential buyers would be way better off trying a Scandium before buying. They aren't exactly cheap to find out that you can't stand shooting it. Never shot one of the little Guardians, but I have heard that they are tough also.
     
  8. 0dBm

    0dBm Loaded Pockets

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    Well, if your preference was to place your hand on a reliable firearm, why not place it on your primary, likely more powerful, sidearm vice that of a secondary, BUG that is incumbered by the confines of your pocket and the ODD angle with which you necessarily will be firing from. If you say you will draw the BUG from your pocket before the BG gets the "drop" on you, why not draw the larger, more powerful, more accurate primary instead?

    The S&W Model 640 .357 Centennial is what I carried as my BUG for many years and is my immediate and final recommendation.
     
  9. Skipperbrown

    Skipperbrown Loaded Pockets

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    I carry a j frame most every day. I don't carry my heavier guns b/c they are harder to conceal and, well, they are heavier to a fault. The small lightweight j frame works for me.

    With the 357 versions, you can use a variety of ammo and that fact gives you a lot of possibilities. Lots of folks are using the new 'short barrel' ammo in 357 which has special powder to reduce flash and some have much reduced power. Some call them 357 -p. They hit harder than 38+p, but aren't nearly as painful to shoot. Others are using 38+p in their j frames for the first 2 or 3 shots and then finishing off w/ the more powerful 357 rounds. There are many ways to skin a cat.

    I shoot my j frame regularly and a lot. I use .38 bunny loads I make myself and I can shoot 50+ rounds b/f it starts to get uncomfortable. Occasionally, I finish off w/ some .38+p's (which is my carry load). I have the 405 CT grips and I like them a lot.

    For a dedicated carry gun that will only be used for killing bad people, I don't really don't see the need for single action. Your target will likely be uncomfortably close. If you need the extra range a single action might provide, you likely have other options than shooting. Running away like a cowardly dog is much preferred to me than explaning for hours and hours why I felt it necessary to shoot someone.
     
  10. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    I never stated that that I would draw a pocket gun, on the contrary. If I was going to draw anything it would be my primary (1911). If I had to fire a pocket gun and it was in my hand at the time it probably would be being fired from inside a garment.

    The senario where this could possibly unfold would be due to my primary being concealed (strong side on my belt covered by a shirt) and where drawing it might make me the primary aggressor. However we all know that if approached by a bad guy(s) and there is no avoiding it and there was no reason to use or even present deadly force when approached by a multiple threat or what appears to be an unarmed bad guy and all of a sudden he presents with a knife or is obviously drawing a gun. Having your hand already on your back up and being able to fire through a garment could save your life.

    Owning guns that are miserable to shoot (in quantity or frequently) are sometimes the best tool for the job. I still want to check out the scandium guns. It also might still be the best tool for the job with .38+p instead of .357. Also I want to give thanks for the honesty to the member that made the post on his magnaported gun sending spent gases and by products from his shots into his beard. This is obviously a better conclusion than looking down and getting it in your own eyes. I dont mind having a gun that I cant enjoy all the time, I live where the gun laws are easy so having many guns are ok by me, I just want the best tool for the job.
     
  11. 0dBm

    0dBm Loaded Pockets

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    I confirm that you didn't state it. I stated it. It was a supposition. You still insist on firing through a garment vice drawing your primary and in that awkward angle while the firearm is IN the pocket. Have you considered that your clothes may catch on fire?

    What is the likelihood that you would find yourself in a predicament that you would need to place your hand on a BUG to get the drop on a BG? You in law enforcement?

    The .357 designation is a model # of the handgun that I referenced and not necessarily the cartridge that I would use in that firearm. Coincidentally, cetaris paribus with the bullet weight, there would be marginal difference in velocity between a 38 +P and .357 Magnum in the barrel lengths most commonly found on BUGs.
     
  12. Skipperbrown

    Skipperbrown Loaded Pockets

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    The speer website shows their short brrl 135 gr .38 +p gold dot at 222 ft lbs and their same bullet out the short brrl .357 at 294 ft lbs w/ a 135 gr bullet. That's a 32% increase in energy with a 15% increase in velocity. If you can handle the additional recoil and noise and flash, the 32% increase in energy may be a welcome improvement in a bad situation. Other cartridge makers (corbon and remington are 2) are catching on that super lightweight 357's are many in number and need a special low flash ammo. I think corbon's 357 is a bit hotter. The fact that you can't hardly find these rounds in stores shows it is well received. Now we all agree that a .38/357 snubby doesn't come close to a 45 or 9mm +p in power, but I don't think you'll find many BG's laughing at you if you point your snubby in their face. And a .38 in the pocket is better than an AR15 in the truck if you need it now.
     
  13. Eeyore

    Eeyore Loaded Pockets

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  14. dmattaponi

    dmattaponi Loaded Pockets

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    I just can't imagine...shot placement is key.

    Regardless, no handgun is going to knock your assailant down like magic, unless it's a brain or spine shot. I'd rather have a gun that I can become proficient with through practice so that I can make the best shot possible.

    Also, as someone pointed out, shooting through a garment might be a bit problematic, and not the best idea except under extreme conditions. Your clothing could catch fire, and just because you think the gun is pointed where you want, doesn't mean that it actually is. If you had to do it is one thing, but to lay all you chips on it is another. Now I know you said you have a primary that you would draw if you could, but I still think the reasoning in your post, sounds like it could be thought out a bit more. In your close range knife encounter scenario, you'd still be better off to draw your concealed hammer revolver. In this case a Centennial would be a great gun to use, as you could press it against your adversary even if they were on top of you, and the gun should function. Also the short barrel doesn't give someone much to grab hold of, if they are trying to get your revolver. All of that said, "To each his own".
     
  15. tpd223

    tpd223 Empty Pockets

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    I highly recommend the 642. I have two of them, have carried them for years both on and off-duty. The newer alloy framed 642s are rated for +P and handle it just fine.


    As for shooting from the pocket, in my experience, especially with magnum ammo, the coat pocket will be blown apart. This may or may not be important to you. I have never seen this cause a fire though, and I have done this several times, and seen it done a few more.

    I would avoid firing the .357mag ammo from the Scandium guns, feels like a baton strike in the palm of your hand, and regardless of energy the wound ballistics between a .38 and a .357mag from a 2" barrel are too close to worry about.
     
  16. mpi

    mpi Loaded Pockets

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    close range defense from a knife dmattaponi, should not, and in all probability won't involve a firearm right away. if you survive to open up the distance you might get of a shot or two, but you can in no way count on it. in all likelihood you are gonna get killed trying to draw your sidearm!

    i never caught fire either............
     
  17. dmattaponi

    dmattaponi Loaded Pockets

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    I have no personal experience with either, but I have no fantasy that I could outdraw a person attacking me at close range with a knife. If my post in any way made you think this, I most have written it pretty poorly. My thoughts were that if someone were under attack and an assailant were on top of you, that "if" you were able to draw your handgun, a Centennial type revolver would be the "best" for this situation because it could be pressed against and adversary and fired. Not slide to inhibit function in this kind of scenario as with an autoloader.

    Also, interesting to read of first hand accounts of firing through a pocket. I have no doubt tpd223 and mpi know what they are talking about. Good to hear that it can be done without fire. I based my comment concerning the fire on a segment of "Best Defense" (I think) in which the pocket smoldered after a shot was fired from a pocket of a vest. They felt that it could cause fire in some instances. Maybe it was the specific material, and of course not every instance is going to have the same result. Like I said, I would do it if I had to, but I wouldn't base my whole mode of carry around shooting from a pocket (and this last sentence was really the only point I was trying to make).
     
  18. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    Well I appologize, I guess some of us lead a more sheltered life than others. Yes I am in law enforcement. The exposure that we all have will somewhat be due to our demographics. I would rather have the threat of a loose dog, however there are areas of this country where you just cant leave your doors unlocked anymore. If you do not have the exposure of Detroit, LA, NYC, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Miami, or other metropolis you just will not understand the serious nature of this post. Be thankfull that you do not have the exposure that others have.

    I live and work in S. Fla. I have been involved in emergency services for 35 years. I retired from a Public Safety (Police / Fire) Department in 1997. I was a Sergeant for the Police Division and a Lieutenant in the Fire Division. I got back into it with another another agency in the West Palm Beach area about 10 years ago. I am also an NRA firearms instructor, I am also the department's armorer at my agency and still hold an advanced level Emergency Medical Technician certification. I respond to shots fired calls frequently (with and without victims) sometimes more than once in each shift. There are nights that our officers AR-15's get deployed more than once a shift. I have seen the result of Hundreds of shooting victims with my Emergency Medical Services road expierence, required Hospital clinical time, Police responses, and also having been a Professional Removal Specialist (picking up bodies) for the Medical Eximiner's (Coroners) Office's in two counties.

    As listed in other areas of this thread, the victim should not have to look like the primary aggressor and MPI is on the money where he stated "in all likelihood you are gonna get killed trying to draw your sidearm"! In certain areas of this great country of ours there are serious dangers. In the Boca Raton mall in this county (an area not much different than Beverly Hills) there has been a serial killer, he has left women and children shot dead in their cars after he has forced them to make withdrals at ATM machines.

    As I also stated the added discomfort from recoil with a scandium frame gun might be worth the added discomfort if one is in a life or death situation. If I have a choice of a sub caliber round in a similiar size package for a back up to a firearm with a more realistic option like a .357, I would never think of the lesser insurance plan.

    No your clothes should not catch on fire unless you had already been doused in gas before you shot. If this was the case the indicated correct response is still to FIRE FIRST then the stop drop roll and put yourself out or you will be badly burnt or dead and the bad guy gets away. There is no substitute for good training and the monday morning quaterbacking will just make you the victim, HE WHO HESITATES DIES!

    If you don't prepair for the unexpected you may put yourself at a disadvantage. I have been with my wife and children at truck stops with our RV and been approached by an individual and in another case a pair of individuals fortunitely on one occassion just my 1911 and badge on my belt was enough when my shirt was moved. On another occassion I consider my family lucky as the pair both had a knife in theit hands. I watched as they approached from different angles. Being aware of my surroundings in this case helped and I already had my 1911 in my hand when I needed it. I had to let the pair know that the closest guy dies first as I squared off in a modified Weaver stance. When they realized that they had an armed victim they ran. Fortunitely there were several deputies including K-9 watching this unfold from inside the truck stops resturant (their patrol cars were around the back) they set up a perimeter and caught the pair. We were later advised that the pair was responsible for stabing and slashing several victims over a consideral amount of time and that there were many many other victims of the pair.
    I was advised that the pair pled out to lesser charges than what they should have gotten, but both got jail time.

    Eeyore, leathal force has nothing to do with disengaging a threat. If it does that, it is great and you are safer. However the use of leathal (deadly) force with a firearm is to shoot to stop you or another from being a dead or seriously harmed victim when that level of force is necessary. If when the smoke clears the bad guy is stopped and he happens to be dead, it should have been his fault that he caused that level of force to be used against him.

    Now back to the original topic. It is still my interest to hold a scandium frame gun with a non exposed or shrouded hammer (as was suggestedby another member) with a nonported barrel. I feel that the even possibly punishing recoil might be worth ones life for 5 shots even if the gun cannot be frequently fired. I will check it out at the next gun show.
     
  19. Echo Echo

    Echo Echo Empty Pockets

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    Since +1 isn't allowed, concur. ;-)
     
  20. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    Hi All,

    Well I think the next gun show is comming up this weekend. I will try to put my hands on as manny small lightweight revolvers with a concealed hammer that I can, to assist me with my decision making process. Then I will try to retain the cash and not buy other toys (like an AK-47, I don't have one of these yet either) so I can get the revolver there or soon.

    Cliff