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Re-thinking tactics.

Discussion in 'Personal Security Devices & Self-Defense' started by jackknife, Jan 13, 2010.

  1. Rob72

    Rob72 Loaded Pockets

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    In the OP's situation- no. "Disparity of force," is the determinate phrase. The OP is 60-ish, the agressor >40 or thereabouts, I assume, and significantly larger and more physically capable of doing harm, hence, the OP is legally entitled to deploy a "force equalizer."
     
  2. StorminMormon

    StorminMormon Empty Pockets

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    Absolutely, whatever the law will allow - go for it. If you want to (and legally are able to) open carry a knife - I say go for it. I'm with you on the point that a "show of force" will deter those who are only looking for easy prey. As for those on this forum that think it would somehow provoke a greater response...I completely disagree. If some dirtbag is going to start something, I doubt the fact that he has a knife was a motivating factor in starting the encounter. I remember one time I saw a kid who was vandalizing a row of newspapers stands - you know, the things where you throw in your 4 quarters and get your paper. I don't know why, but it bugged me - so I went over and started yelling at him. Now, I was 21 at the time and the kid was like 9...if that! He gave me the finger and told me to screw off so I walked over there and my body language suggested that I was about to rough him up - which I was. He reached behind his back and pulled out a black wooden stick about 18 inches long. He didn't say a word, he just pulled it out and raised his fists to get ready for a fight. I didn't have anything - this was YEARS before I started carrying a gun, much less a knife or anything. Anyway, that's all it took - I walked away and had to endure the continued mocking and string of profanities about being such a "wussy" (I'm trying to keep it clean here).

    I think there are several things that a person needs to do on an ongoing basis while out in the Urban Jungle:

    1) Situational Readiness - I know it sounds crazy and I get all kinds of looks when I share this comment, but I am constantly "scanning the horizon" for threats. I have 3 little kids and a lovely wife and I care for them deeply. When we're out in public - I'm that Secret Service guy you see who's constantly looking at the crowd trying to figure out who's going to jump out of the crowd with an AK-47. So, I don't know if the punk kids of Daddy the Barbarian got the drop on you or not, but all I'm saying is don't let your guard down and keep eyes in the back of your head.

    2) When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail - I carry almost every day:

    - Walther P99c in 9mm w/ extra magazine
    - Leatherman Charge multitool
    - Cold Steel Urban Pal (Neck Knife)
    - Cold Steel SD2 Mini Koga (they're awesome)
    - Cold Steel Inferno Pepper Spray

    So, if you have a favorite weapon or two - that's great, make sure you're good with them. You don't have to carry 5 or 6 things like I do, but I just like having them. Mostly I carry all of those things in case I get separated from one or two. I keep the Urban Pal around my neck, the gun on my hip, the Kubaton in my vest pocket, and the pepper spray in my vest pocket. I can't always carry a gun everywhere (I'm in South Carolina) so if I have to leave it in the car, at least I'm carrying what I can.

    3) Improvise, Adapt, Survive - No two encounters will ever be the same. I read a story one time about an older gentleman who encountered some punk teens on the sidewalk in a busy town. He had nothing on him, and thought he was done for. He didn't know what else to do so he just stepped out into the middle of the street. It wasn't a busy street full of cars, it was just ... he was in the middle of the street. The other teens looked at him and didn't know what to do. He wasn't running...he wasn't even crossing the street...he was just standing in the middle. So they walked out there to mug him and as they got close, he pointed at the closest building and said to the teens "Smile for the camera!". They all stopped dead in their tracks and backed away - because they were afraid of being captured on some closed circuit security camera. Anyway...it was a bluff.

    Having said all that - it's my opinion that most thieves and robbers are effing cowards and if you yell at them, flash a knife, or just stand your ground a little - they'll probably just leave you alone. If not, make sure you get some good hits or stabs in and make 'em wish they had never messed with you.

    Sorry I wrote so much - like I said, this is a topic I'm very passionate about.
     
  3. Herbie

    Herbie Empty Pockets

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    But in almost any other situation, pulling a knife - legally speaking, is the same as pulling a gun. You have now brought a lethal weapon into the mix. The law does not allow for "attempt to intimidate someone into leaving you alone" when it comes to lethal weapons. The use (or brandishing) of any lethal weapon in self defense is very narrowly defined and the burden of proof shifts to the holder of that weapon.

    Believe it or not, but in many states, a broken nose or split lip is not sufficient injury to justify self-defense with a lethal weapon. Proving, beyond reasonable doubt, that the wielder of a lethal weapon had legitimate fear of death or more serious injury, can often be difficult.

    There is at least one knife instructor who teaches, in no uncertain terms, that there is no such thing as a "knife fight". Once a knife is in-play, we have moved onto "attempted homicide", whether legally justified or not. (As such, that instructor preaches "learn to take a beating" as rule #1, since many "fights" would not escalate to attempted homicide without the introduction of such weapons.)

    Granted in jackknife's case, given the previously mentioned "disparity of force", he had reasonable (and probably legally defensible) belief that the impending fight was equivalent to attempted murder already. My point is only that those who carry a knife for "self defense" had best be very clear and disciplined about WHEN they employ that knife, else a simple bar-shoving-match over a spilled drink could turn into a serious legal problem for the knife wielder in a big hurry.
     
  4. primal

    primal Loaded Pockets

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    Regarding your first paragraph, I believe a lot of terms are being incorrectly applied, here. It's the attacker who initiates "intimidation". "Brandishing" also usually implies aggression/intimidation, which is, again, usually initiated by the attacker/aggressor. If you're on the defensive and you're forced to reach for whatever tool is at your disposal, in this case a knife, you have not brought a lethal weapon into the mix if you're intent is only to defend yourself, in my opinion. Whatever level the attacker chooses to take it to is totally up to him. The victim is only being forced to respond accordingly in order to avoid going to the hospital and/or the morgue.

    Regarding your second paragraph, I don't believe it's that difficult to justify defending oneself in an attack. A broken nose or a split lip is more than enough to show defense was necessary. And, since most folks probably forgot to bring along their mind-reading caps to an attack, they're probably not going to know at what point the attacker was going to stop, if at all. Btw, while we're on the subject of lethal weapons, an assailant's fists & feet alone can be considered lethal weapons when used in the commission of a crime, I believe.

    Regarding your third paragraph, whether or not there's such a thing as a knife fight (which I believe there is), to say it's moved onto "attempted homicide" is exaggerated & incorrect, in my opinion. Again, victims' primary intentions are to protect their lives and/or the lives of their loved ones. It's the attacker/assailant who has initiated/attempted harm. The victim is not choosing death, they are choosing the preservation of life, theirs and/or their loved ones.

    I agree with the fourth paragraph. But, as long as a victim's stand is true, I don't believe he/she has anything to worry about, afterward. Even so, if technicalities/issues do arise, at least the victim was lucky enough to survive and deal with them.

    I think folks tend to get too caught up with the mechanics of things, instead of focusing on the heart of the matter with things of this nature, intent.

    You know, instead of "re-thinking tactics", maybe folks should consider "re-thinking" perspectives, and see things more through the eyes of victims.

    Anyway!

    :shrug:
     
  5. Talkingstick

    Talkingstick Loaded Pockets

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    While I respect some of what is being said on this thread, a lot of it seems to bear relation to the story about the karate expert that was beaten to death before he could take off his shoes.

    First off, Jackknife is a senior citizen and as such he has special needs as to his personal safety; especially in this day and time. As a senior citizen, Jackknife and many others find themselves a target for those without conscience,

    I read Jackknife's earlier thread about the cane not being what he needed at the time. I believe that he was very smart to carry a "backup" to his cane and I would encourage him to continue the employment of his cane in his personal arsenal. Each and every instance where one may find the need to employ self defense is different. There could just as easily come a time when Jackknife was glad he had his cane handy.

    The soul searching that comes after a confrontation is entirely normal. Situations such as the one described above by Jackknife are not a part and parcel of daily life; they are strange and frightening instances that are, unfortunately, becoming increasingly frequent. As such, there are those who choose to try and allow for the survival of such instances. Legal considerations are secondary to surviving the initial encounter. Survival come first' everything else is an after thought.

    The wrestling with terms and ideas certainly has it's place amongst those who choose to compare thoughts. Steel sharpens steel. At the same time it must be recognized that each and every person who chooses to contribute their ideas have differing needs. The self proclaimed experts in these matters will not be standing next to you at the time of a violent encounter. You will be on your own.

    All the very best to Jackknife.
     
  6. primal

    primal Loaded Pockets

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    Hear, hear.

    :iagree:
     
  7. jag-engr
    • Administrator

    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
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    It actually may be worse in some locations, as there may be a precident of legal justification for deploying a gun, but probably not so for pulling a knife.


    An excellent point. Some people here worry me, as they seem to be looking for a reason to pull a knife in self-defense.

    _________________________________________________

    Primal, please note the red phrase in the quoted portions of your statement. Your opinion is certainly reasonable and valid, but does it represent the popular sentiment of the average jury? In Texas, probably so. I the Maryland, probably not. I think both your argument and Herbie's argument have some weight and both of you make some good points, but keep in mind that law enforcement, the D.A.'s office, and a jury may all see things differently.

    I fixed this statement for you...
     
  8. havz

    havz Empty Pockets

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    I agree. "Better to be judged by Twelve than carried by Six"
     
  9. Herbie

    Herbie Empty Pockets

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    This is exactly the attitude that I think needs serious analysis by anyone who would carry a knife. I absolutely agree that dealing with the legal repercussions is better than being dead. The trouble is that not every encounter for every person is a life or death situation.

    Better to be judged by Twelve than carried by Six, but is it better to be judged by Twelve than to lose a Six-pack?

    Lets leave out the dramatic disparity of force that's so popular in this thread. I'm 5'6", 34 years old, and a corpulent 230lbs (a nice way of saying I'm an overweight code monkey). If I used my EDC knife to cut up a guy for trying to take my wallet or in a fist fight over a spilled drink, I'll be on trial for sure. If, god forbid, I permanently maim or kill said mugger/attacker, I could see jail time. If a jury decides that parting with the $62 in my wallet or simply leaving the bar were more reasonable actions that defending myself with a knife, I'm now a felon instead of a broke coward.
     
  10. jlagman

    jlagman Loaded Pockets

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    This reminded me of a video I saw posted on another forum I frequent:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk-EVLyIpts

    I don't want to get into the technique aspect of it, but he does point out some solid realities that people should be aware of; knives can be dangerous to either party, even with minimal training, practice, and experience. Pulling a knife is a big gamble because as said before, it either works like a charm or the assailant calls your bluff and it goes south fairly quickly. I carry a folder around for utility and while I do find myself fondling it and feeling subsequently feeling more confident whenever I'm in a bad area, I try to keep this in mind.
     
  11. Monocrom

    Monocrom Loaded Pockets

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    A good use of common sense is what's needed. I carry my money in a cheap, brass, money-clip. If I'm dealing with one mugger, screw it! He can have my cash. I get to keep my I.D. and credit cards. But if I'm approached by an attacker and his buddies, that's where disparity of force comes into my favor as a young, fit, guy. Multiple attackers is a very real possibility.
     
  12. Talkingstick

    Talkingstick Loaded Pockets

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    Earlier, in speaking to tactics, I touched on survival of a violent encounter being of more concern than legal considerations. Since then, I've been reading the thread just to keep up on what is being said.

    Just to make a point, a big part of survival of these affairs reside in things like awareness, deterrence, and even escape. The idea of being judged by 12 instead of being carried by six is real big in law enforcement circles. It sounds good; the realities are somewhat different. My earlier comments were meant to focus on the immediacy of surviving the violent encounter situation. The situation for senior citizens (and women) is even more complicated.

    Simple awareness of surroundings can lower one's chance of being victimized by as much as 70%. For the remaining 30%, then deterrence and even escape must enter the picture. A big reason for carrying of a cane (for me, personally) is deterrence.

    I know from my own experience that even with the best laid plans, one can find themselves in the middle of a violent situation. Such was the case when a young man came up to me in the dark, put his hand inside his coat and ordered me to give him all of my money.
    The solution for this situation resided in my own past experience coupled with the fact that my wife was with me.
    I attacked him employing a fixed blade knife that I had concealed.
    Some insight was immediately had into the matter when the young man started screaming that he was "just playing".

    I subdued him, searched him for a weapon (which he did not have, it was a bluff) and then released him without leaving a scratch on him. I was fully prepared to take this young man's life, but thankfully it was not necessary to do so.

    That was what worked for me in this instance and it was before my cane carrying days.

    As economic conditions worsen, a rise in violence may be anticipated. I'm not speaking to bar fights, rumbles, or any other excuse to use force. I'm speaking here to those who might be looking for insight in troubled times. Survival speaks the loudest.

    The highest form of martial art is the avoidance of violence.

    For those looking for an excuse to use force or who wish to fantasize to compensate for shortcomings in their own lives; I don't know that I have any words.