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Open and concealed carry discussions

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by alan85, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    iomatic,

    The NRA is constantly showing how the statistics are twisted by the antigun establishment. Enjoy what you read, it is aparrent that you are only interested in one side of the issue, as you also did not take me up on the offer of the free book. I will offer it again to an interested party some other time, thank you for not getting it and using it for tinder.

    AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT IS BETTER TO HAVE IT AND NOT NEED IT THAN TO NEED IT AND NOT HAVE IT!

    iacchus, you are a lucky guy, for retirement purposes how are the taxes there? The better half and I are still looking at Ga, Tenn, and possibly Texas so far. South Fla is too hot and muggy. PM me if you have spare time.

    Back to the original post, it is about Florida becoming an open carry state.

    Cliff
     
  2. Helrazr

    Helrazr Loaded Pockets

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    My 2 cents. I have a CCW, I Love the idea of OC for the fact that someone mentioned already, it is :censored: hard to CC in Florida when it's 90 degrees outside and you are wearing shorts and a teeshirt. With that being said, I also do not frequent areas that I feel I would need to carry a gun. Avoidance is the first rule! The whole discussion about civilians carrying is pretty moot if you ask me. Criminals will, without a doubt, gain access to a gun somehow and it is nice to know that I can possibly defend myself, my family, my property. I have no problems defending any of those with deadly force from someone who thinks they have a right to screw with my "belongings". Simply put, if you don't want to get hurt then don't mess with peoples self, family, property. If you are dumb enough to do so, then you deserve what you get. There is just too much bleeding heart thought going around, it is, in my opinion, eroding common decency and courtesy in the US. I have personally had a friend killed because someone wanted the 20 dollars in his wallet and then shot him anyways. Unfortunately he was unarmed. This occurred in Jacksonville. The case has just finally come to a conclusion recently and it has been many years of taxpayers housing the criminal who was without a doubt guilty.
     
  3. alan85

    alan85 Loaded Pockets

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    There is a small store like this in Ocala, Florida, right along the ocala national forest. I have a family member that lives there, miles down a dirt road deep into the forest. His closet store sells ammo, guns, milk, bread, fishing gear, etc.

    Yup. It will be nice to know we can carry in comfortable clothing, without fear of breaking the law.
     
  4. iomatic

    iomatic Loaded Pockets

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    HAM,

    I appreciate the offer; I will get the books myself.

    I've already stated my position; I'm a gun owner, active shooter, but choose not to carry, so I think I'm qualified I understand both sides of the argument.
    I think you are the one who only sees one side of the argument.


    I appreciate your discussion, but using only one source is definitely not a rounded way to get information. Of course the NRA website is going to have pro-gun statistics, and everyone else can quote the Brady website for all the anti-gun statistics. The bottom line is that guns should be a right, criminals need to be controlled, and guns are not the solution to a social problem. Gun rights have nearly zero impact on the real problem.
     
  5. bpa

    bpa Loaded Pockets

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    Thanks for the offer. I am reading "More Guns, Less Crime" right now.
     
  6. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    Hi All,

    The book Guns Crime and Freedom is also another good source of information. Just because one chooses to be a sport, target, or competitive shooter, that does not necessarilly give an individual the emergency prepairdness / survivalist / constitutionalist mindset. It does not even give a good background on defensive firearms.

    I respect the freedoms that some take for granted, I also am aware that many anti gunners are members of the NRA (usually to look for some dirt). Regardless, that membership gives an additional amount of education in that it is a constant source of information amd a wealth of knowledge from loads of sources.

    BPA, I appreciate your open mindedness, hopefully your interest in some fact finding will lead you down to a great deal of further safety and understanding. I also recomend NRA membership to help protect your rights (for those of us posting that are americans). For those of us that are not Americans NRA membership has information In their publication "Americas First Freedom" occasionally on Canada, Austrailia and some other nations.

    This post should be renamed, it strays constantly from open carry in Florida.

    Cliff
     
  7. bpa

    bpa Loaded Pockets

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    Our first freedom is freedom of religion, and of the press:
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    I have no more use for the NRA than for the AARP. Both have agendas that go well beyond the needs of their alleged constituencies.

    I wish Florida well with open carry. Maybe I'll drive there from California just to avail myself of the privilege and so I can feel safe.
     
  8. iacchus

    iacchus Loaded Pockets

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    Do you own a pistol?
    You can't legally buy one if Florida, so before your road trip, you should pick one up in California.
    Of course, choices in pistols are somewhat limited in California because of their arbitrary and mostly ineffective firearm laws.
    Maybe you should move to Texas first, so as to avail yourself of a full selection of pistols, then take a road trip to Florida so you can open carry.
    Just make sure to read up on the laws for carrying a pistol in your car in the states you will be passing through, as they differ from state to state. For example, you can carry concealed anywhere on ypur person within the confines of your car while in Mississippi, even without a CCW license (as long as you can legally own the gun, of course).

    The sunbelt is beautiful this time of year! Let me know when you will be passing through; I will take you shooting at a nice local range if you like.
     
  9. bpa

    bpa Loaded Pockets

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    Thanks, I'll take you up on that.
     
  10. Justinicus

    Justinicus Loaded Pockets

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    This is demonstrably wrong ;). I'm looking at a gun right now. I am absolutely positive that it has not threatened any democracy anywhere since it was created. It's not driving a delusional system. It's not driving anything at all. It occasionally GUIDES a hunk of lead and copper down its barrel, but even there, it's the expanding gasses of gunpowder combustion that do the driving! Guns are inanimate objects. They are tools. It is people who drive delusional systems and threaten democracy. They may use guns -- what kind of idiot wouldn't use the most effective tool at their disposal? Sometimes that tool is a weapon. Sometimes it's popular opinion. Incidentally, popular opinion of those who have WEAPONS. Surely you realize that those who are begging for an American-enforced No-Fly Zone don't want us to do it with Goodyear Blimps and cotton-candy launchers. Gandhi was able to lead a peaceful resistance against British rule because the British people didn't particularly want to be there anymore (according to my university history professor) and there was leverage to be used against the British government. I doubt a similar resistance would've worked against Genghis Khan, and I don't think it did much good in Rwanda (note that I'm avoiding the Hitler argument! are you proud?)

    I wish the gun banners felt the same way. The way I see it, Great Britain and the rest of the commonwealth nations ALSO had long traditions with firearms, and see where they stand on the matter now. As for what my weapons mean to me, they mean very effective tools in certain situations. What they actually mean themselves is absolutely nothing; I just asked. They had no response. Yup... inanimate steel, plastic, and/or wood, every last one of 'em.

    And for the record, bpa, for a good long while (on this and another topic), I didn't believe you weren't interested in banning guns. I had to reread a couple of your posts on the matter, actually, because never before have I heard someone say (to paraphrase), "I see no need for semi-autos, high capacity magazines, concealed weapons, etc." without following it, sooner or later, with "...so they should all be banned." In retrospect, I don't doubt that many such people exist.. I suppose I just never hear them talk about it. Thank you for breaking the mold!
     
  11. bpa

    bpa Loaded Pockets

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    Thank you. It is nice to have a civil conversation where we often disagree. My opinions can, and often do, evolve.

    I do not talk about guns in military situations - those are part of the game. The rules are different in battle.

    Agreed that guns are tools, just like hammers, knives and screwdrivers. People do not defend themselves with guns or knives or hammers - they defend themselves with their brains, using available tools. That said, guns get imbued with an almost mystical capability of righteous self-defense.

    But guns are useless unless the one carrying it has it ready to deploy and use without hesitation and without compunction. And even then they don't always work. They would have done no good in Rwanda. A gun is useless against a mob wielding clubs and machetes. You might get one, or even two, but then they will be on you to take the gun and use it on your friends.

    We will not get rid of guns here, nor will we solve the problem of gun violence. While we defend our constitutional rights, our country rots from within because of drugs and lack of opportunity. It's easy and fun to debate gun control, but it's irrelevant. Mexico has tighter gun controls than the USA, but anyone who wants a firearm can go North of the Border and get several. It's a joke.

    It's easy, fun and glamorous to demonize drugs, dealers and users. It also gives us the opportunity to be strong and defend ourselves. But it's not so glamorous to solve the drug problem, because it's hard and would require change. We will never do it, any more than we will control guns - our society is incapable of either.

    If you want a psychological explanation of why we take the easy solution rather than an effective, difficult one, read "The Logic of Failure" by Dietrich Doerner. It's as seminal a work as Milgrom's "Obedience to Authority" or Zimbardo's "The Lucifer Principle."

    So don't worry about gun control - it's meaningless. It doesn't solve society's problems any more than open carry laws do. We'll catch up to Mexico soon enough, regardless.
     
  12. iomatic

    iomatic Loaded Pockets

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    This is the point the pro-gun-no-matter-the-consequences folk don't seem to get.
     
  13. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    Hi All,

    When MOST people obtain their first carry gun, they sometimes conjure up scenarios where they might save a person or persons with their gun in a given situation. This is normal.

    Then when they get proper training, they wonder and most do not understand at first, when they are told that using a firearm in defense of others, to avoid the others from getting maimed or killed could land them in jail.

    It sickens me when I tell my students, that even in the best case scenarios, where they might be 100% correct and they did everything correct, AND THEY TRULY SAVED LIVES THAT OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE DIED, that any bystander / potential victim that they saved, might turn the tables on them when the police get there.

    There are many well intentioned gun owners that have at least had difficulty defending themselves (to the police or in court) even with several witnesses that were on their side. All it takes is one person like some of our posters to tell the police (after you saved them and maybe their family) that your shooting was unjustified and that YOU should be arrested. Many of my students are amazed when they hear this.

    None the less, this happens all the time. With this in mind, always consider that you might be a better witness to what took place, than a hero! This can also happen if you use a gun to save your own life. But it might not be worth it when you want to use a gun to save another's!

    CPR instructors tell their students all the time, that the training is more for their family and close friends than others. Even though they are properly trained that they do not have to feel oblagated to do mouth to mouth and have to endure the vomit and the possibility of dieases from blood borne pathogens that are frequently associated with rescue breathing.

    The same unfortunitely goes for proper firearms training.

    It sucks to have to tell my students and EDCF readers this but it is so true, that it should make you hesitate (when it comes to others) so that you get to home after any use of force incident. After all, isnt this really why we all want to carry in the first place, to have the chance to go home in the end? It is also hard to hesitate because as the saying goes, He Who Hesitates Dies!

    I feel that it is not always good to keep responding to all posters here as well. That sometimes stops the negative posting.

    Be safe,

    Cliff
     
  14. bpa

    bpa Loaded Pockets

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    No good deed goes unpunished.
     
  15. alan85

    alan85 Loaded Pockets

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    Done.
     
  16. iomatic

    iomatic Loaded Pockets

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    I'm attempting to summarize your thoughts here; you're saying that having a gun poses a civil and moral risk to yourself?

    I'd have to agree, that's why I don't carry (per your example of the EMTs, I also know a few; ex: help a foul-smelling transient who appears to have passed out… erm, eh… no thanks?)

    Forgive me if I misinterpret; I like when people in larger posts: rant (I actually enjoy watching people's freeform thoughts), support their rant (I think this is really important), and then draw up a conclusions that are relevant and concise.

    Thanks for your thoughts.

     
  17. keith6

    keith6 Loaded Pockets

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    Okla soon to follow
     
  18. bpa

    bpa Loaded Pockets

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    I read Professor Lott's book. Very interesting. I have something of a statistics/scientific background, so found it reasonable. The gist of it appears to be that crimes against persons decreases when CCW licenses must be issued. Apparently the increased safety effect extends to those who do not carry because perps cannot know who is armed and who is not. Fine with me.

    This reminds me of an incident in the neighborhood where I owned my first house - not the best one, shall we say. Both my wife and I had colleagues who would not visit us in that neighborhood out of fear or racism or both. We never had a problem in the entire time we lived there, except for this one incident. Some guys who lived down the block were racing cars up and down the street, and narrowly missed my neighbor's young granddaughter, so he threw coffee on their windshield as they drove by. When they got their baseball bats and went to have a neighborly chat, he got his pistol and invited them upstairs. Quick apologies, and they left, even moved out soon after that.

    As I have said before, there is a place for weapons. I, along with most of society, benefit from them being around. The fact that others carry generally means that I do not have to. Who knows, maybe I will someday, if it gets too dangerous to suit me. But I'll never tell.
     
  19. Tradecraft

    Tradecraft Banned

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    Such a statement leads me to interpret your statement as, "you are going to rely on others to protect you, your wife or family if something goes wrong." You are also assuming that the armed person will get involved on your behalf. I find this a risky bet to rely on anyone else for my safety. Even the police have no obligation to protect you as an individual; their obligation is to protect society as a whole and not individuals.


    "if it gets too dangerous to suit me" is a very ambiguous statement. Now I realize that only you know the answer but does it mean AFTER you, your wife or family are victimed. Is it when you have a "near miss" of becoming a victim. Many people don't answer your statement until it is too late. The time to make such a determination is best before any incident happens so that you are actually prepared AND trained prior to the problem.
     
  20. Monocrom

    Monocrom Loaded Pockets

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    Violent, career-criminals don't obey gun laws. A certain side just doesn't seem to get that particular point.