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Discussion in 'Handguns' started by SAKplumber, Sep 16, 2014.
Gee...I can't believe I missed that
I'm not a huge fan of it either, but I do it quite often. I can't carry at work and it's much easier to sling the bag over my shoulder than to try to
put on-take off-put back on a holster in the car. Since my place of work has a secured parking lot I feel pretty comfortable leaving it locked in
the car during the day... not as good as keeping it with me but it works. As to the points mentioned in the article...
1: Yep, once I put that bag (Maxped Fatboy) over my shoulder it doesn't come off for any reason until I'm back in the car.
2: Yep, same gun(s) I'd carry on body.
3: Yep. My Fatboy is an older one, so it doesn't have a loop field for a holster, but the pocket fits my preferred carry guns pretty well.
4: Drawing out of a bag really kind of sucks, it's nowhere as easy or as quick as a good CC holster. I think you need to be a touch more situationally
aware when carrying in a bag... just from a standpoint of being ready to start your draw a little earlier if needed.
5: Hmm, I'm ALWAYS aware of my gun when carrying, on body or off. I only see this as a problem if you only rarely carry off body and aren't used
to it. I get what he's saying, but I've never understood those claims of "Oh, I forgot I had a gun in there." If anyone has that problem... they
should probably stop carrying until they get it resolved.
That's why he has his H&K VP9 in the bag and specifically stated in the article that he carries a larger gun when he off body carries.
Your right, I overlooked that.
I'm no fan of off body carry but perhaps for a backup or secondary weapon. Which gets me thinking, with little size limitations with off body carry, why not go with something like an FNX-45 Tactical? Or even an Uzi if you like.
What do you suppose draw times look like from bag carry? Backpack? Zipped up messenger bag? If we're being honest, "having something is better than having nothing" is only true if you can get the "something" in use fast enough for it to matter. I would bet that fewer than 1 out of 100 off body carriers practice drawing from off body.
If you don't carry it every day, it's not every day carry.
I do this all the time. I pack heat when in my garage which is always in the afternoon. Nobody except the me & the wife knows where it is and it is always there. Same thing in the car and on my motorcycle. I use a Maxpedtion Sitka which was designed to carry. When I am out and about without the bag, I pack in the front pocket.
I have a very low perception of threat... but I'm one of the original 5000 licensees in Florida... in my former job as a classroom teacher, on body carry was not a work time option ... so far, around town has very little violent crime...but I do spend a lot of time on the road, traveling to matches, and visiting friends... two incidents prompted me to have a pistol in the vicinity... the Luby's Cafeteria shooting in Killeen, Texas, and the murder of a Florida Highway Patrol Officer on I-75 on a stretch of road I traveled monthly to a USPSA match (at the time I carried my gun bag in the back of the 280zx.... the range bag was afterwards carried in the front seat... school vacation was during the hot months where I typically wear nylon fishing shorts... so after much deliberation, trial carry options (and a good portion of my paycheck going to Milt Sparks Leather), I settled on a pocket pistol for on body, and a full sized pistol with a few accessories to be carried in the car bag... it gives me the ability to include a fairly complete trauma kit... I toyed with the idea of carrying an AR pistol during the high profile trial we endured a couple of years ago
Motorcycle carry is a problem in its self . I pocket carry , when setting I would be hard pressed to get the gun out . Over the years I have carried a j frame in a vest pocket , but when its in 80s who wants the vest. Belt carry doesnt work well either.So any ideas ?
Buckeye Jake... unless you have an aversion to a fanny pack... the Uncle Mikes Gunrunner (small or medium, I don't remember) was the best I found... it has a Velcro top closure and two button snaps on the edge of the pack that allows the pocket to open up wide for access.. it will hold a G23 sized pistol upside down, or a smaller handgun like my chopped Charter 2" 44 shown right side up.. I recently sold the FJR, but occasionally carried with this pack on my right hip
I occasionally carry in a DeSantis gun pack or a shoulder bag with a inside holster. Neither one of them is left anywhere but around my waist or on my shoulder. Draw is indeed slower.
Wow. Those bulldogs are a cannon ! What is that front site may I ask ? Also what load do you like ?
Depending on your situation, where you're going, what you're doing, etc., you may not need to draw and be on target in 1.5 seconds or less. I'd venture to say that one reason a lot of people carry is because of the potential threat of an incident occurring nearby (park, mall, etc.) It isn't necessarily because they're going to be robbed at gun point and plan on pulling their gun and shooting the perp right then and there.
Having something is better than having nothing if you do need it, and the time it may take to draw from a bag (even if you have to take the bag off, unzip a compartment, reach in and grab it) is likely less than 4 or 5 seconds. If you're at the park with your kids and you witness a young lady being harassed or you're at the mall and a store is being robbed or a shooter comes in to the mall, of course seconds matter, but the difference between 2 and 4 seconds can be negligible if it means you'd have your gun instead of leaving it at home.
If you do have kids that you carry regularly or ride a bike or are in any number of situations that don't allow for on body carry, I feel it's a viable option IF you train with it.
Jake...the front sight was silver soldered on, so removed it when I shortened the barrel... re soldering it back on it got too hot, whatever the metal was, part of it slumped, so I machined the top off and dovetailed a standard 1911 style .330" dovetail front sight... after adjusting it, I never finished trimming the excess off the sides... it is typically carried with Silvertips from way back in the day... though it shoots point of aim with the very low velocity Cowboy Action loads... I have gotten lazy in my old age, and don't reload anything but 9mm... the 1050 is a PIA to set up for additional calibers...
Nice site. Neat fix too! I see it now . God I miss those silvertips , I still have six boxes left for the Seecamp.
Something like this comes to mind:
Regarding the sentiment that off body is better than not carrying at all because "it is better to have something if you need it":
This is an often incorrect bumper sticker slogan. It is frequently used in an attempt to rationalize a talismanic carry mentality. Simply put, it doesn't matter if you have it if you can't get it into use when the need arises.
Here are some scenarios from the real world. Going beyond these, I suggest considering a wide variety of DGU stories that you hear, and to consider the prominence of speed of access in them.
1. Two men walk out of work after closing. It is dark. As they walk out to their cars, they are set upon by 5 men who are speaking to them as they approach, and then rapidly escalate once they are within closing distance. The two men are knocked to the ground and beaten. One of the two had a CHL-- a pocket carried .380. Because he was attempting to "turtle" to avoid being killed during the beating, and because his arms were being kicked and his body jerking, it took him time to gain access to his pistol. Once he got it out, he fired a single shot, apparently hitting one of the attackers in the shoulder. The men yelled and fled. The two men survived, though both were badly hurt, and the defender with the CHL is permanently disabled. Consider how off body carry and the need to navigate a zipper would have changed this situation. In this example, "having something" in a bag would have been like not having it at all... until the attackers took the bag after beating them to death and discovered that they had just gotten ahold of a firearm.
2. A man was sitting in his living room watching a movie when someone made entry through his front door unexpectedly. The man turned and saw a man in a mask advancing with a bat. The defender drew a pistol that he was carrying on body. Seeing the pistol, the man with the bat stopped in his tracks, then ran back out of the home. Consider the reality of off body carry in this situation. Where do off body carriers REALLY put their bags? In the article he wrote, Noir actually commented that his firearm was in a bag on a chair on the other side of the table from him. That indicates a casually dismissive attitude toward the possibility of actually needing a weapon. Even if we say that the defender in this situation had the bag sitting on the coffee table, he is in a position where he has to turn his back on a bat-wielding attacker, unzip the bag, and remove the firearm from the holster in the bag. Given the distances at play, he would have been having to do these things *while being beaten*. In this example, "having something" in a bag would have been strictly a negative, as above.
3. This example will be a mash up of a real event and Colion Noir's day at the cafe. The real world version happened at an internet cafe in Florida, IIRC. Two men walk in, each armed, and try to rob the clerk at the cafe. In the real world, an old man drew a revolver, engaged them, and put rounds into each as they ran from him. Now... imagine this taking place in Colion Noir's coffee place as he sits with his bag on the opposite side of the table, zipped up. It stands to reason that his laptop is sitting on top of the table between him and the bag. How does that change the outcome of this situation? With one of the robbers scanning the people in the cafe while the other focused on the register, I will put it out there that he gets burned down before his firearm is in play, IF he even goes for it.
4. Sitting in a food court at the mall. Shots are fired. People start running. Imagine this with your firearm sitting in a bag on a chair on the other side of the table. I know guys are going to want to say that they go right for their bag, but in the real world, your head will be turning to see what is happening. Do you want to have to move for the bag before you start running? Do you leave the bag as you run? Can you draw while you run? Can you (or would you) get your kids moving toward safety while also grabbing your bag, and keep them moving the right direction while trying to get that firearm in hand on the run? Parents... what do kids do when they hear loud, unexpected noises? I think most of my fellow parents should be nodding right now and saying, "Yeah. The kids are going to briefly freeze and look for the source of the bang bang."
You can do this all day. There are so many DGU examples to choose from, and the overwhelming majority do not play out favorably if the carry method is off body.
Even more importantly...
Who REALLY trains with off body carry? Let's be honest, here. I've worked in the business, and I have never met anyone who has trained with a bag. Similarly, I don't know anyone who has real training who carries off body. Sure, there are bound to be a couple of exceptions out there, but smart money says they are veritable unicorns.
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yes and no, I carry a glock 22 on my person and a PPKS in my briefcase.
I agree that off-body carry is an inferior choice compared to on-body carry. However, I do believe that it is better than not having it. You have to adjust how you do things when carrying in a bag, being more vigilant because of the time it takes is just one thing.
The guys in example one failed to use proper situational awareness to be taken by surprise. Even so, having a gun that you might have been able to get to is better than being beaten to death because you didn't even have one to try to use.
In example 2, someone who carries in a bag wouldn't have to be concealed in their living room. If they are going to leave themselves open to surprise in their living room like that, they should be able to have a gun easier to access.
For example 3, the bag is sitting next to him on the couch. Like he said, it helps keep people from thinking it is ok to sit on the little couch with him.
Example 4, again, someone carrying in a bag should not have it sitting in a chair across the table from them.
Again, I agree that on-body carry is the best choice. When you can't do that, I think a bag is better than nothing. You have to have the proper mindset when carrying from a bag. On-body carry is better than in a bag in every example above, but that doesn't mean that off-body carry automatically loses the fight. In every example above, I'd have won the fight with my bag carry if I would have won it with a holster on my belt.
I'll take the chance that I can hopefully get to my pistol in the bag, rather than not carry it and definitely not be able to get to it in a fight. By all means, carry on-body when you are able to do so. And yes, if you are going to bag carry, you need to practice that way!
He makes some great points in his article. I won't ever off body carry because I would just be to paranoid some one would try and steal my bag. His first tip to treat the bag like a newborn really summed up how i feel about off body carry.