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Kubotan on Trial in the UK

Discussion in 'Personal Security Devices & Self-Defense' started by PocketWad, Apr 3, 2010.

  1. phill

    phill Loaded Pockets

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    Just saying you thought you saw a weapon and if you only hit him once (or a couple times if he is getting back up, ie dont keep beating him on the ground out cold).

    The reason the cases where people were deemed to have overstepped "reasonable force" happened is usually because the robber is trying to run, they are beaten to death after being KOed or similar scenarios where the other guy is clearly not fighting back. One single blow to the back of the head is no more suspicious than the side or front, if anything it proves you are more scared of confrontation. A well worded excuse like "i heard a noise, went to investigate taking the bat just in case i needed to scare someone off, then i saw the burglar and i (thought i) saw him holding a weapon (hammer is prob a good one) so i hit him once and he fell to the ground and i called 999" would make it extremely difficult for them to even take the case to trial let alone convict in front of a jury.

    Also of course never speak to police without a solicitor there.

    Im not justifying killing the burglar as i believe in self defence and not vigilanteism, but you can be as safe as you need to be as reasonable force is open to such a wide interpretation and if you feel youre life is in danger then it is in danger. Now if the guy was just a teenage kid who was unarmed you wouldnt crack him in the back of the head, either warn him off or wing him taking out his knee and call the cops, whatever is reasonable at the time, but the point is the law is designed to allow you to protect yourself as much as possible, you just cannot carry offensive weapons in public which is an entirely separate collection of laws.

    As the saying goes, with the support of the Mail less time you will spend in jail. They got Tony Martin out on a much reduced sentence and he did himself no favours using an illegal shotgun to shoot someone in the back outside of his house as they ran away from him.

    This is the most recent debate worthy case on the topic:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/14/jail-brothers-burglar-cricket-bat

    Pesonally i think the sentences were spot on and they clearly overstepped from self defence to revenge but even that case got public outcry for them to be found innocent (due to the attack on the family which was horrific i do not deny).
     
  2. 50ft-trad

    50ft-trad Loaded Pockets

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    I remember that one!

    Good to see the footnotes with other events, as some of those are new to me
     
  3. VinnyP
    • In Omnia Paratus

    VinnyP Loaded Pockets

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    If that's what happened no doubt the truth will set them free but if it's an excuse to avoid the consequences of their actions they may get away with it if everything else adds up. Unless of course the prosecution show that they read this? Maybe better to stick to the law and the truth? It's a dangerous world where we decide what laws should apply to us. If you don't agree with the law as it stands, fight to get it changed, move to somewhere with laws that suit you better or flout it but be brave enough to be honest that you have done so. If you only obey laws you agree with and lie when you break them what makes you better than the guy who broke into your house especially if it was just a guy who was so drunk he broke into your house thinking it was his and wondering why his key didn't fit ...

    I completely agree the best place to get advice is from a solicitor.
     
  4. lukem

    lukem Empty Pockets

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    Understood, and I am likewise hampered, and man, is it ever emotive!
    It's nice to be able to discuss it with someone that doesn't fly off the handle the the first mention of firearms though!

    Unfortunately, I cannot find a news record in the UK of a civilian self defense with a handgun either. That might be due to the fact that carrying weapons for self defense is illegal over there...
    One of our human rights organizations here in the US publishes a monthly magazine that includes an entire column devoted to successful self defense events, many of them with firearms.

    That's great, so am I! (Firearms trainer for 6 years, certified to teach carbine, CQB, OC spray... I left it behind due to time constraints with my day job.)
    I wonder though, if you would feel different if you were not allowed to go armed at any time?

    That's usually considered to be the point of carrying a weapon on your person. so that it is readily accessible when needed.

    I think you realize that this statement could not possibly be true. As a law enforcement officer, you're probably not allowed to shoot someone unless they are presenting a real threat to yourself, right?
    That would be in self defense...

    In the US, most self defense laws require a very specific set of criteria. (The threat has to show Means, Motive, and Opportunity.) and never for protection of property. (except castle doctrine, but that's a sidebar)
    In the defense of KNOWN innocent 3rd parties. (No shooting the UC officers because they are shooting at the dealer in the suit kind of thing!)

    If you're ever over here in the states, (TN to be more precise) I would be happy to sponsor your attendance to a firearms training class that will help you to better those times.
    Unless they are of spectacular physical training, I doubt anyone could either A. unlock, open, enter, close and relock a car or B. outrun 1-12 youths faster than they could draw a pistol.

    When flight is possible, it's preffered. Avoidance and De-escalation are two of the self defense principles I live by. so do most of the HCP holders I know.
    However, most training companies over here offer at least one class in close position self defense, including how to deploy your chosen weapon while at close range.
    That's also why we tend to layer our self defense options. As a ferinstance, I carry a pocket knife on each side, one is for utility, the other is for close defense, and weapon retention.
    In the draw stroke I was taught and later taught to others, after gettign a fighting grip on your sidearm, you pull it upwards and turn it to point forward. This allows you to engage close targets immediately.

    Yep, lots of people carry first aid stuff for that very reason.

    Why? Is it because bloody gunshot recipients tend to feel more physically active and aggressive? (Barring chemical courage, they don't tend to...)
    I've seen variations on that statement made by several anti human rights organizations here in the US, but they've never explained the rationale behind it.

    Less lethal is a great option, and one everyone should choose first if they can. (I'm partial to OC spray myself, although the air tasers are nice too!)
    However, having less lethal options does tend to slow down your response time, due to the additional choices you have to make.
     
  5. lukem

    lukem Empty Pockets

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    Unfortunately, due to the laws in my jurisdiction I'm not allowed to carry my wits with me. They have to be locked safely away... LOL!

    Yeah, facing the choice many years ago between being able to legally carry weapons for self defense and consuming alcohol, the alcohol lost. Not that I'm against it, and when at home and unencumbered by my responsibilities, I do enjoy barley pops... Including some from your side of the pond!

    I agree. we have our looneys over here. one of them just lost his HCP because he lacks appropriate judgement and common sense.
     
  6. VinnyP
    • In Omnia Paratus

    VinnyP Loaded Pockets

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    Shooting someone can be for a few reasons but the most important ones are to prevent serious harm to others and also if in the lawful arrest of someone. So slightly different since you might have to go forwards when others should be going backwards.
     
  7. lukem

    lukem Empty Pockets

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    Yep, sounds like you have the same restrictions and limitations law enforcement has over here. basically shooting in self defense, the only difference is LE has a duty to go towards the threat, whereas the rest of us have the option of heading AWAY from said threats. 8)

    Those are good times! Nothing to be ashamed of there.
    You'd laugh at the typical qualification for law enforcement officers over here. When they have the budget for their yearly qual, it's typically ~50rds from a standing position on the line.

    Stay safe out there my friend!
     
  8. Hoshnasi

    Hoshnasi Empty Pockets

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    Is anyone else constantly questioning the "Resonable Force" note? I live in California, which has some similarities to the UK. I'm scared that shooting someone who has entered my home without permission could be deemed "exceesive force"...
     
  9. Mcameron

    Mcameron Loaded Pockets

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    now im not one to tell you what to do...

    ...but i know, that if someone had entered my home without permission......and i had a reason to believe they were there to harm ( as in, i said " leave or i will shoot you" and they didnt leave)....then i would not hesitate to open fire on them.......regardless of what the laws said........because i would much rather be in jail than dead.
     
  10. 50ft-trad

    50ft-trad Loaded Pockets

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    Yeah, it's a tricky one. Sometimes I wish I had the ability to respond in such a way so the guy aint gonna be able to hurt anybody anymore, then other times I'm glad that I (and others) don't have the ability to make that decision.

    Certainly over here in the UK, its a case of how can I defend myself against that bad guy without becoming a bad guy myself. I want to protect my life. Not just stay alive, but keep my freedoms as a citizen (i.e. not get locked up for my response). Maybe it's better to be imprisoned than dead, but aiming to be alive AND free in the heat of the moment ... wow! Tough call. One thing I have learnt however, is that when that moment comes, you don't always respond as you thought you might. Speculation is one thing, but the real thing isn't always what you expect it might be.
     
  11. phill

    phill Loaded Pockets

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  12. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera Loaded Pockets

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    The basic idea is, a well-trained combat expert knows 15 different ways to kill you over the phone, so the weapon they have on-hand is pretty irrelevant unless they need to be able to project their power beyond arm's reach, which is not the case in pretty much any situation a normal person will encounter.

    Knowing how to knock someone's legs out from under them and then stomp on their face will take care of just about any violent encounter in five seconds or less. If your assailant is willing to pursue you with a splitting headache and a hemorrhaging broken nose, you must've done something to deserve getting attacked in the first place.
     
  13. lukem

    lukem Empty Pockets

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    That's a great plan if you're:

    A. In good physical condition, not hampered by a previous injury or infirmity, and well trained in hand to hand fighting.
    B. Not facing more than 1-2 attackers.
    C. facing attackers that are not stronger or better trained.
    D. Have room to perform said sweeps and strikes.

    It will take months (minimum!) of near-daily training to reach a level of competency in hand to hand combat to be able to reliably defend yourself in an SD scenario. Not to mention the required physical strength and coordination, and maintaining such training levels.
    I can teach any person in minimal physical condition how to defend their life with a firearm in an afternoon, and those same skills can be maintained with monthly range visits, and optionally dry fire practise that can be performed safely in the home in minutes.

    Weapons are merely tools, they assist us in performing whatever actions we deem necessary.
    Forgoing efficient tools for any job is silly.
     
  14. K9medic

    K9medic Empty Pockets

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    If I may bring this debate back to the original point. I know a fair bit about this particular case as one of the people involved is a close personal friend of mine.

    Before the case he asked a number of police officers in Scotland their views on Kubatons. Every officer asked stated that they would not consider a basic Kubaton (no attached spikes or sharpened points) as an offensive weapon. And would not therefore not arrest someone for carrying one in public. Even the High Sheriff in this case accepted that Daren day did not carry the Kubaton with intent. But he took the prosecutions advice that it was an offensive weapon.

    As my friend said on the Jeremy Vine show, if you have trained long enough to be good enough with a Kubaton you probably don’t need it.

    The opinion on another forum is Daren was stupid to drink drive, once the officers know they had pulled a celeb, they decided to get him on more as a career booster

    My opinion, its bad “Drills” to put yourself in a situation where you’re not 100% in charge of your faculties.
     
  15. JN01

    JN01 Loaded Pockets

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    Actually, excluding homicides (80-90% of which are criminals killing criminals), Britain's violent crime rate is higher than that of the US. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

    Having the right to self defense is rather meaningless if you are stripped of the most effective means of exercising that right. Some areas in the US are like that as well, DC for example. Avoidance, escape, and non lethal options should all be employed, but when all else fails and it comes down to defending yourself from death or serious bodily harm, an effective weapon greatly increases one's odds of survival.
     
  16. 50ft-trad

    50ft-trad Loaded Pockets

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    This article explains that there are differences in the way crimes are catalogued and recorded, so unfortunately we are not comparing apples with apples on that one. Just the media whipping up a frenzy to get attention again. It would be interesting to see some direct comparisons with identical recording methods.
     
  17. phill

    phill Loaded Pockets

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    A kubaton is designed and manufactured solely to be a weapon. At best the officers asked didnt know what it was when they answered (or used digression to look the other way) or at worst they didnt understand the law but it is pretty clear they are illegal to carry under the letter of the law.
     
  18. Brangdon

    Brangdon Loaded Pockets

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    I'm afraid without references, or at least a name or date that we can follow up, this is a useless anecdote. There's a chance it was a rogue policeman, of course, but it's also far more likely to be a mis-reporting or exaggeration. Perhaps the police turned up to rescue an old lady in distress, not to arrest her. Perhaps she got belligerent and was arrested for that, rather than for having a weapon.

    Here's a more recent, similar case for comparison - the one involving celebrity Myleene Klass: Early report, later report. Briefly, from the first report, she saw two men trying to break into her garden shed at home, and waved a knife at them from her kitchen window. Police came and told her off for having an offensive weapon. However, from the second report:
    ... Hertfordshire police seem to have felt moved to make a statement in which they denied issuing a warning about the knife. "The story, based on quotes from Ms Klass's publicist and interpreted by some national newspapers, does not reflect the events of that night in an accurate way," they said. "Ms Klass was treated with respect and sympathy by the police officers who came to her home." The force has since pointed out that no reference was made in the incident report to use of a weapon, countered that the law allows householders the proportionate use of defence to protect themselves and their property, and added that "words of advice were given in relation to ensuring suspicious behaviour is reported immediately".
    So the original report was completely distorted, but many papers reported it uncritically, and you wouldn't know the truth unless you dug a little deeper. I suspect your little old lady story is similar.
     
  19. 50ft-trad

    50ft-trad Loaded Pockets

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    Defence against an armed robber with improvised weapon in the UK, sees the "anarmed" guy get rewarded and recommended for bravery award

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8682862.stm

    I reckon this robber picked the wrong target!!!
     
  20. 5534

    5534 Loaded Pockets

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    Hi there. In relation to self defence in the uk the law is there to stop the "baddies" carrying as well. In terms of uk law in relation to offensive weapons the wording used in relation to an item is - made,intended or adapted ( off your property) so chasing someone with a piece of wood trying to hit them with it =the wood becomes an offensive weapon. Knife carry itself is covered under a different law.
    If you are in genuine fear of personal harm the law even caters for a pre emotive strike and also self arming eg. Picking up an object at the time of having to defend yourself
    Taser and ca type sprays then come under the firearms act and are prohibited ( extendable battons are also prohibited to own in the uk even in your own home.

    Sorry if this post is rambling and disjointed but it's being done at 0138hrs on my iPhone