1. Are you a current member with account or password issues?

    Please visit following page for more information

    Dismiss Notice

Kubotan on Trial in the UK

Discussion in 'Personal Security Devices & Self-Defense' started by PocketWad, Apr 3, 2010.

  1. PocketWad

    PocketWad Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2007
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    1
    I saw this a few days ago:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8582526.stm

    I'm not sure I follow this. According to the story, there's no law in Scotland that prohibits the sale or possession of a Kubotan. If that's true, how can they prosecute the guy for violating a law that doesn't exist...?

    Maybe some of our UK members can clear this up.
     
  2. VinnyP
    • In Omnia Paratus

    VinnyP Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    112
    You can possess a weapon but not carry it in a public place unless you have a reasonable excuse. So in your own home or land or any other private place is fine.
     
  3. PocketWad

    PocketWad Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2007
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    1
    Vinny, so what's considered a "reasonable excuse." I should think fear of street crime would be "reasonable."
     
  4. J4C3

    J4C3 Guest

    Anything can be concidered a weapon if mis-used or have the intention to mis-use,its a very open law that can be used in a varity of ways,it boils down to this,your not allowed to carry any form of weapon at all self defence or not.
     
  5. VinnyP
    • In Omnia Paratus

    VinnyP Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    112
    If it's so dangerous you need a weapon then don't go there is the best self defence there is. Weapons are pretty poor in real self defence situations. The reasonable excuse applies the test of " that the carrier is in anticipation of imminent attack and is carrying it for his own personal defence and the threat for which this defence is required must be an imminent particular threat affecting the particular circumstances in which the weapon was carried"….”
    A general threat is never enough.
     
  6. Stutoffee

    Stutoffee Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2006
    Messages:
    2,308
    Likes Received:
    165
    This is Britain. ANYTHING is possible!!!!
    I used to carry a Kubaton on my keys, Ive also carried a clear plastic Stinger (instead of the Kubaton!) Now I carry neither, but the way round it would be to carry a AAA Mini-Maglite!

    The law (in THIS country!) is an asssssssssssss. (donkey/mule NOT a bottom!!)
     
  7. zev

    zev Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2010
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    0
    So the UK wants to ban a dull piece of wood.
    On the other hand I assume box cutters are still legal, even though they can be used to hijack an airplane?

    People don't know how good we've got it here.
     
  8. Monocrom

    Monocrom Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2009
    Messages:
    8,035
    Likes Received:
    8,228
    Not in the UK!

    Self-defense, for all practical purposes anyway, is illegal there.
     
  9. jackknife

    jackknife Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,637
    Likes Received:
    4,502
    I think where the problem lays, is that something like a dedicated kuboton has no other use but that of inlicting injury/pain in it's design as a weapon. In a place like the U.K., this is a very dumb idea for a native who knows the laws. I've often thought it unwise to carry these so called weapons when a AA minimag will do just as well, and has a rea world use. Last thing I heard, it still gets dark evry night, and a flashlight is a handy thing.

    I guess I don't feel too sorry for the guy, he gets drunk, has an accident, of course they are going to be looking at him under a microscope. If he'd had a miimag in his pocket, and a nice steel pen like a Cross or Zebra clipped in his shirt pocket, nobody would have said boo.

    If you know you live in a tight security world, don't carry a dedicated weapon. Only common sense.
     
  10. phaserrifle

    phaserrifle Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    963
    Likes Received:
    235
    no, but there is (or atleast, there is in england and wales, I'm pretty sure scotland is the same)"posession of an offensive weapon" a catch all offense which can cover pretty much anything that isn't a knife or simmilar stabbing impliment (which is covered under a seperate law)
    "self defence" is not considered reasonable grounds for posession of a weapon in a general sense (as covered by VinnyP) under UK law, outside of the handfull of home office issued CCW permits.
    therefore, while they are legal to purchase and own, carrying a kabuton is illegal unless you have some other reason for carrying it (eg to/from a martial arts class)
     
  11. qharjo

    qharjo Empty Pockets

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Messages:
    149
    Likes Received:
    1
    If the blade locks in place, no, they're not legal to carry around either. A blade over 3" OR a blade that locks are both prohibited in England. People have gotten in a bit of trouble for having Stanley utility knives on their person, as the blade locks out.
     
  12. lukem

    lukem Empty Pockets

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very true! As a former self-defense and firearms tactics instructor, it's something that I have repeated many times!

    I'm interested to learn the rationale behind this statement though, would you care to elaborate?
     
  13. phaserrifle

    phaserrifle Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    963
    Likes Received:
    235
    legal to own (same as a kabuton) but with out a legaly valid reason, just as illegal to carry as any other locking blade. and likely to arouse suspicion from police, on account of being popular within certain criminal groupings (football hooligans for example)

    the "knife laws" actually cover pretty much anything with a point or sharp edge. so sharpend screwdrivers, boxcutters, scissors and even pizza cutters are all covered, even though you wouldn't normally think of them as knives
     
  14. vegassprky
    • GITD Manix 2XL Owner
    • In Omnia Paratus

    vegassprky Loaded Circuits

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Messages:
    11,578
    Likes Received:
    63,699
    So over there self defense is illegal!! Only legal to be a victim!
     
  15. nja4k

    nja4k Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    5
    i am so smart . S.M.R.T hahaaaa

    So who are these laws really protecting. If someone is already thinking about robbing or assaulting someone. They probably aren't really worried about the weapons laws at all.
    So it makes their jobs that much easier knowing everyone is pretty much a mark.
     
  16. phaserrifle

    phaserrifle Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    963
    Likes Received:
    235
    actually, weapons carry not withstanding, the law is pretty good for self defence. you can use "reasonable force" to defend yourself against an attack, and that "reasonable force" could well include weapons so long as the where either:
    A) carried for annother, legitimate reason
    or
    B) grabbed during the attack (e.g. grabbed a loose brick from a wall, and hit you attacker with it)
    or
    C) grabbed just before the attack, due to immediate fear of the attack (eg hearing noises downstairs, just before going to investigate)

    reasonable force is usually applied with a good amount of common sense by the courts.
     
  17. Monocrom

    Monocrom Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2009
    Messages:
    8,035
    Likes Received:
    8,228
    Those provisions are ridiculous! Case after case has shown that the UK would prefer it if people just rolled over and allowed themselves to be victimized. For all practical purposes, yes; self-defense is illegal in the UK.
     
  18. phaserrifle

    phaserrifle Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    963
    Likes Received:
    235
    I disagree. carrying a weapon is illegal in the uk.
    defending yourself is still very much legal, and the courts have shown this many times over.

    personally I think that there should be a change in the law, to atleast legalise the carry of less lethal weapons such as pepper-type sprays and tasers. while a properly employed and publically available CCW system would be good, I don't think it's going to happen.
     
  19. 50ft-trad

    50ft-trad Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    2
    There have been a few threads along this vein now, and it's always difficult to differentiate the UK's provisions for self defence from Monocrom's (understandable) theory of self-defence being illegal, for those who are used to being able to carry defensive tools.

    The only thing that comes to mind is:

    a) spontaneous self- defense is perfectly legal,
    b) pre-meditated self defense (being tooled up ready) is not

    I know pre-meditated SD sounds like a contradiction of terms, but the UK's legal system can get very clouded if the "victim" injures/maims an "assailant" with an offensive weapon carried specifically for that reason such as a kubaton, knife (other than >3" slippie), obviously tactical pen or flashlight. That confusion would not occur should the victim happen to flatten the assailants nose with a brolly in changeable weather, "adjust his attitude" with a Fenix LD30 during an evening stroll, poke him in the eye with a "civilian" pen on the way back from the office, or deal a gender modifying blow with a stout walking stick carried to support a known knee injury. Even a fixed blade knife, hammer or wheel brace could be a legitimate weapon dependent upon the actual location, activity and circumstance at the time of the assault.

    In those circumstances the jury (despite cunning diffusion from the lawyers) would have less doubt who the bad guy really was than if the victim had set about his assailant with a Fexix TK30 on a bright sunny day, surefire pen in a nightclub, a faceful of WD40 in the park, or a Spyderco Military outside Tesco's after buying a pint of milk.

    With these thoughts in mind, it is possible to be both legal and "preparded" over here - just don't go out there obviously tooled up and looking as if you are expecting trouble. You'll be classified as one of the bad guys
     
  20. tso

    tso Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    51
    do police in GB still patrol without firearms?