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Knife prohibited in police station? city / town halls?

Discussion in 'Knives' started by papacrapas87, Nov 16, 2009.

  1. papacrapas87

    papacrapas87 Loaded Pockets

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    I felt exactly the same way as you... I felt like I was being advised to be paranoid and worry about EACH individual LEO's personality and attitude towards knives / edc...
    In which case, it would seem that if one then tries to comply with the "rules" of the harshest out there, then it would amount to nothing more than blindly giving up your rights... just because your afraid of people's different opinions... :rolleyes:


    Exactly, ... this post started as one about knife regulations in the specified circumstances / buildings... but concealed carry seems to keep creeping into the issue... especially when it's obvious you shouldn't have a gun in a fed building...

    Oh, do you know of any one good source for the full text of legal stuff? Or just google it?
     
  2. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    You are thinking way out of the box, I am not wanting anybody to be paranoid, just cautious. If you think of how a liberal might want to ruin your day, you will be one step ahead of them. There are many definitions in federal state and local law. When a police officer is sworn in, their oath is to enforce all federal, state, and local laws (municipal ordinances).

    Generally as a matter of law, county supersedes local, state supersedes county, and federal supersedes state. That being as it is, it is exactly the opposite with firearms law, (this is still a little off topic, on knifes in government buildings ) I am just trying to be helpful when you might run into the liberal officer, or one that read you wrong and wants to ruin your day. Please don't take this out of context, however a little insight will probably keep you happier if you end up in a non consensual encounter.

    In New Hampshire it is almost a perfect world, their license plates say "live free or die". It is my understanding that you can carry a concealed firearm without a permit; it makes me want to live there, no hassles. All you have to do is abide by federal law. That’s the way it should be.

    Now let’s look at the bass ackwards rest of society. I will use New York, Pennsylvania, and Illinois for my examples as I am somewhat familiar with these states. In all of these states the federal law is the same. If they didn't meddle in other peoples business like in N.H. as mentioned above, we could all sleep better. In N.Y. the state says sorry you need a permit. Then most counties say sorry we don’t issue full carry permits and they stamp your permit "RESTRICTED TARGET AND HUNTING ONLY". I had one of these for years.

    To be able to carry all the time, I belonged to a 24 hour gun club, I carried a box of ammo, targets, muffs, eye protection and a cleaning kit in my car with me in a range bag (you did not have to be going directly to or from the range). Then all the state of N.Y permits were good throughout the entire state, EXCEPT New York City. There your state wide carry permit, that was never restricted in some counties and restricted in others was good throughout the entire state of New York, except it would get you arrested in New York City. All New York State permits are marked not valid in New York City. In New York City, you need a New York City permit. Those are good state wide (go Figure). It is nearly impossible to obtain a New York City permit. Pennsylvania has issues with Philadelphia and Illinois has issues with needing a FOID (Firearms Owners Identification card) and they have issues in Chicago.

    So now you see that the laws in many areas are FUBAR. So if you read the above New York example, City supersedes County, County supersedes State, and State supersedes the Federal Government. So this is how easy it is to get in trouble when you want to be a law abiding citizen.

    By the way, don’t take this as legal advice, it is bound to get you in trouble. It is for educational purposes only. As I said and have demonstrated certain examples, the definitions are different in different places and circumstances. But you wanted to know where to get definitions, a major source is “Blacks Law Dictionary”.
     
  3. papacrapas87

    papacrapas87 Loaded Pockets

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    Hey,

    Thanks for clarifying your point of view. I think I get better what you are saying... ;)
     
  4. popedandy

    popedandy Loaded Pockets

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    Thanks for taking the time to clarify that. I wondered if I was reading a bit too much into it, and sure enough, I was.

    For what it's worth, in addition to trying to understand the law, I try to use some common sense. And as I hope I made clear, I don't believe in arguing or being confrontational with LEOs. Most of the ones I know are pretty decent folks who are doing a great job in a challenging profession.

    papacraps87, to answer your question, I just google it. Once you know where in Title 18 to look (Chapter 44, section 930) it isn't too hard to find.
     
  5. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    Sorry if I made it look foolish. But when I see otherwise good citizens, that would probably come to my aid if I was getting my clock cleaned by a bad guy. They are the ones that I want to share the sorry facts with. There are liberals in all areas of society (even in my line of work). I want to walk away when I see these things happen in front of my eyes. Fortunately all of the guys from my small agency are pretty much of the same mind set.

    No good law abiding citizen should get in trouble for what should be a non issue. Thanks for letting me ramble and vent. I am pleased if my post made even one decent person think twice, in any given situation that could have, or can in the future, have a negative impact that could change their life forever.

    Cliff
     
  6. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    I have seen other posts that I have not replied to regarding libraries etc... The location is not always what is in question. It could be a child suport office that you are dropping off a check at. I just want you you think if it looks like dog poop and smells like dog poop, it probably is dog poop. My post was just trying to broaden the thinking patern of honest law abiding citizens.

    I have arrested people for bad things and hear them state My _______(attorney , friend the cop, etc... you fill in the blank) told me what they were doing was legal, when it was not. Please when it comes to weapons think out of the box.

    If you are going to verify something, please remember that there are many interpretations by many different sources (government entities) and persons, regarding weapons, think of Murpy's Law (if anything can go wrong it probably will).

    Speaking of Murphys Law, I have another sorry anology on how different things can be looked at. I have a local store in my area, it has a sign that states "No Firearms Allowed" on their front door prominently displayed. The letters are about 6" tall. Normally I would say so what, even if they found out, who would care and who could do anything to enforce it. It is not a regulation government issued sign and it is definately not a government building. Guess what? It also says in smaller letters about 2" tall under it (still easy to read) , "persons in violation of this store rule are guilty of [trespass after warning]"and it list the Florida state statute number on it for trespass. So you may not be guilty of any firearms law violation and this store rule violation could still give you a real bad day.

    It is not in my town thank g_d. IF it was, I would give the store the hard time, just do a report and tell the store owner good luck and try to file it with my report at the State Attorneys Office themself. I would think and hope that after it was reviewed (if it was reviewed) it would be "no filed"(dropped). I will not shop there!
     
  7. rueingeni

    rueingeni Loaded Pockets

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    Hi,

    I generally agree with your points, homeland security ham, but I don't think it's right to stereotype all liberals as crazy anti-gun nutjobs, just as it's not right to stereotype conservatives as crazy pro-gun idiots. I am a pro-gun liberal (actually I'm a left-leaning libertarian but whatever), and I'm sure that I'm not the only one on this forum. I don't want to start a political debate, which I'm pretty sure is against the forum rules anyways, but I feel like you're getting pretty close to judging people without knowing anything about them & assuming that everyone on this forum leans to the right.

    Sorry to throw a monkey wrench into the discussion, but in pretty much every post you've made some kind of a comment about liberals and after a while it just got to me.

    Thanks for listening,

    Nick
     
  8. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    Liberal may or may not have been the correct label. That being said, you still are not thinking out of the box. This is not working vell with you. Since I dont think I was refering to aliens from another planet, just try to realize that that there are peoiple of authority that can ruin your day. Stay safe and good EDC'ing
    Cilff
     
  9. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    oops I had a typo on my last post vell instead of well! My post was also not to stereo type anybody. Every body is different and has a right to be. I hope that my label is just that I am a patriotic American.
     
  10. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    Just to show how things have changed over the years. My high school had a rifle range in it for the students and so did all the high schools in the county. There was olympic style training. Believe it or not, that was in New York! I graduated in 1975. The school board used to have the targets mailed in and they were scored with a magnifing tool and the students were given their ranking within the school district. That is a thing of the past now.
     
  11. papacrapas87

    papacrapas87 Loaded Pockets

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    Yup, it stinks when people don't want you to have "dangerous things"... but this is a totally different issue from gov't buildings / facilities.
    On private property, you must comply with any rules pertaining to that property... regardless of how arbitrary they may seem..
    By deciding to shop at some store, or enter some private property, you're tacitly agreeing to their rules... as long as those rules aren't unconstitutional, discriminatory, etc they must be upheld...
    It's not a matter of whether you should or shouldn't be able to carry guns / knives...
    Just as companies can have written policies on knives / guns, or someone could verbally (not written rules) deny someone entry to their home for having a gun, those rules must be followed...

    I've had times where I had a pocket knife clipped to my pants when I was going to a conference at some other company's headquarters... there were no written rules, but when the greeter asked that I leave it in the car, I didn't state my right to carry and just walk in... I had to comply and leave it behind... Same thing here...

    I don't think you could penalize them for having that policy... that's /their/ right, just as normally carrying knives would be ours...
    I don't feel npueppke ever disagreed with what you were saying, just the label of "liberal" that you were using...

    Thanks for understanding~
     
  12. sticktoitiveness

    sticktoitiveness Empty Pockets

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    I have some strong yet mixed feelings on the topic so I'll try to keep it brief and reply as needed to clarify.

    - I'm a hunter & fisherman (Yes I own a firearm) Yet ....
    - I believe hand guns & assault rifles should banned unless you are a uniformed LEO or Soldier
    - My edc knife is not a weapon and will never be used as one (that's what fists & a brain are for)

    that being said it's ridiculous that I have to have a CCL to legally carry my buck 112 into certain municipalities in my area (Boston Lowell etc.) Sometimes our laws do not make any sense! This was brought to my attention recently when one of my wife's girlfriends got into a bit of trouble for carrying mace. It seems that we often listen to political scare tactics when developing laws that should be about common sense.
    So with that in mind... when talking about govt. buildings - yes they have a right to tell you to leave it in the car. However my best judgement tells me that if they do, it's probably warranted. Police aren't afraid of a guy walking in with a blade, hell they're armed and it's they're house! Courtrooms - maybe - it tends to be a place where criminals are found and they don't want to take any chances - they're understaffed as far as security is concerned and if you use your head, it's not very likely that you're gonna need a large blade in court.
     
  13. RAAG

    RAAG Loaded Pockets

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    An important point to remember is that you are asking about a criminal law. Such laws can be federal, state, and, in some cases, county or municipal. Nothing is inherently illegal. It is only illegal if a specific enactment makes it so. Therefore, one must read and understand all of the laws that may apply to the situation and look to their specific language for answers. Sometimes laws are capable of being interpreted in many ways. In that case, court decisions also become a basis for understanding what is and what isn't illegal.

    Many laws contain definitions that help one to understand what they mean. Sometimes those definitions are located in close proximity to the law one is trying to understand. In other cases, those definitions appear somewhere else in the printed materials and are not obvious. Nonetheless, they may make the difference between guilt and innocence.

    Even with all of that, sometimes the proper answer is "we don't know". A situation may arise in which a particular question has never been definitively answered in a particular jurisdiction. In that case we won't know what the law is until someone is charged, convicted, takes the case up on appeal, and receives an opinion from the highest available appellate court. Most of us don't really want to put ourselves at that risk and expense. It is seldom possible to get a binding hypothetical opinion on criminal laws.

    The real life lesson as I see it is to stay a bit away from the dividing line between obviously legal and obviously illegal. YMMV.

    Dick
    (Recently retired after 40 years of legal practice.)
     
  14. SF1

    SF1 Banned

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    Dick,

    Great post. I do not worry at all, I have a firm, not just an attorney to take care of me. Plus, I know every single judge here, so they would all have to disqualify them selves . Also, I am friends with the DA. what a mess for the system here if I get cited. I did once, and I was handed the gun back the next day by the CHP, the worst LE agency in the country.

    But, my luck could run out, so I am careful. You never know.
     
  15. RAAG

    RAAG Loaded Pockets

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    Thanks, Uber. The only problem with knowing all those people is that sometimes politicians lean over backwards to avoid any appearance of favoritism and you may actually end up worse off than if you had been a stranger.

    And if they disqualify themselves and bring in someone that doesn't know you as a special prosecutor or as a temporary replacement judge, you're back to being just another citizen.

    Dick
     
  16. NosHusky

    NosHusky Loaded Pockets

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    I havent ever had any trouble using my knife in or around a school for what ever reason, i know the students have problems but parents dont really have any problems in FL that I know of.
     
  17. Splat

    Splat Loaded Pockets

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    You know something........ I was in our town hall twice this week for a few hours each day and was carrying my American Lawman clipped to my front pocket. I gotta admit I hadn't thought about it until this thread. No one stopped me, gave me looks or said anything at all about it. Guess I didn't look like "a bad guy". ;)
     
  18. RobertPCS

    RobertPCS Empty Pockets

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    This was a great thread, it made me think. I carry my knife everywhere. Its a 3" blade folder, nothing too scary but I do carry it everywhere. Ballgames, inside city call, post office, police station (which is in city hall here), malls, just about everywhere. Only at the All star game did I remember to leave it in my car.

    Point is I have never really thought about it, and its never been an issue. I think after reading this thread that I will make it a habit to leave it in the car for now on.

    Not trying to hijack the thread.....but perhaps a few of you LEOs can answer this for me. Should I ever get pulled over (haven't in 15 years but you never know) do you think its best to pull my knife from my pocket and put it in the console? Clearly I would do this before I even come to a full stop and not be so stupid as to grab a knife in front of a LEO at my window...but the point is are you better off not having any knife on your person just in case?