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Knife prohibited in police station? city / town halls?

Discussion in 'Knives' started by papacrapas87, Nov 16, 2009.

  1. papacrapas87

    papacrapas87 Loaded Pockets

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    So I know that many states outlaw any knives on school grounds (K-12), courts, and government buildings...

    My question is, are police stations considered government buildings?

    I only ask because a few years back I was a victim of a mugging and had to go to the police station, but forgot I had my edc knives on me...
    Of course, I wasn't in for questioning as a suspect, so they might not have cared anyways... but just wondering...

    And also, by government buildings, does that include all local town / city halls or just federal buildings?

    I vaguely feel as though I've read on these topics before, but can't remember off the top of my head. :-X

    Thanks for any responses!
     
  2. rueingeni

    rueingeni Loaded Pockets

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    Good question, I am curious about this as well. I know that you're not allowed to have knives in any courthouse, whether its a federal court or a state court or whatever, and I would assume that town/city halls are government buildings, but I don't think that police stations are government buildings. I don't really know, though.
     
  3. Ajax

    Ajax Loaded Pockets

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    I was going to city hall/police HQ to pick up a purchase permit for a pistol.
    They have a metal detector so I emptied my pockets to walk through, putting my 2.5" folder in the tray.
    The retiree manning the detector told me I couldn't have it in the building so I had to take it back to my car.

    I even offered to let him hold it while I got my paperwork squared away....nogo.

    The irony of having to leave a pocket knife in my car so I could go buy a gun cracked me up.
     
  4. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    Are you serious?

    If your taxes pay for it, its a government building. Please dont take this offensively, but you need to go and get a good CCW class. You would be complaining if your gun rights were squeezed and trampeled on if someone else got arrested on an unreasonable firearms violation and they enacted another :censored: law because of it.

    I wouldnt want to be caught inside an indoor consession stand in a city park to get a hot dog if I was a civilian with a permit. Its not worth it. If it is not private property like a simple store owned and operated by its owner, or cooperation, it is probably a government building. Even with privatazation like Wackenhut corp running some fire stations and prisions, if government funds pay for it, its a government building.

    Please dont forget this and get your self arrested and become another statistic for the anti gunners, even the drivers licensing building and auto tag agencies are government buildings. All states are a little different, in Florida your permit is not good in churches, hospitals, government buildings, stadiums, bars to name a few. Thank god they are allowed in banks and pharmacies. The permits come with a little pamphlet and the permit applacations come with a complete copy of Florida chapter 790. (the firearms law section). In Nassau County N.Y. there is a County run nursing home, guess what its a government building!

    As a police officer, I can tell you all police officers are not always your friends, when it comes to guns. I have worked with several officers over the years that have commented to me and proovedto me that they did everything they could to law abiding citizens with guns. If they stopped a car for rolling a stop sign and they were going to give a warning, when they found out the violator was a permit holder they got the ticket along with anything else they could issue down to minor issues like an expired insurance card even if the insurance was up to date in the computer conduct vehicle inspections to get additional citations (tickets) for equipnent violations etc... When I asked these officers why, the answer I got from these officers was "only police officers should have guns"! I have had some of these officers not only disarm the violator (which is ok and frequently expected for officer safety) but get multiple back up officers blocking the entire street, run the gun thru teletype (which is also ok and expected sometimes) then hold up the violator for an hour or more. I have seen some of these officers intentionally get the violator so aggravated, that the officer had to give the violator a property receipt and seize the gun, place it into the evidence/property section and tell the violator that they can get it back from the evidence technician after they calmed down the next day. Although these practices are all unacceptable to me, these exceptions are all the a _ _ hole cop stories you here about. thank god they are rare.

    I appreciate all law abiding citizens with guns. I am not one of the officers I refered to, however, I needed to make you all think hard since these liberals exist and I dont like to read the statistics of crimes that were charged on permit holders. Who knows You might be the one that might come save my life if I needed it in a bad situation!

    I know most officers are appreciative of law abiding permit holders and treat them even nicer than the average citizen in a lot of cases, but in my 29 years in law enforcement, I can tell you that you that you do not want to try your luck with some officers when it comes to guns. FYI, I am also an NRA life member.

    Thanks for reading this while I vented, Cliff
     
  5. MatBlack

    MatBlack Loaded Pockets

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    Excellent post, Cliff. Thanks for the info.
     
  6. jeeves3443

    jeeves3443 Loaded Pockets

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    Great post Cliff,

    I had never thought of the possibility of such attitudes.
    Thanks for the heads up.
     
  7. 3fgburner

    3fgburner Loaded Pockets

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    Your Mileage WILL Vary, depending on state. In Virginia, it's illegal to carry a gun (and some other weapons) in Federal buildings, courthouses, K-12 schools, and that's about it. It's actually illegal for local governments to ban guns in things like county government buildings, or police stations. Likewise, the only restriction on the General Assembly building in Richmond is that you have to have a permit for the gun you're carrying, be it open or concealed. Outside the GAB, open-carry doesn't require a permit.

    A Virginia gun-rights group uses the public meeting room in a local police station. It'd be silly to ban knives from a whole roomful of people who are openly wearing guns.
     
  8. rueingeni

    rueingeni Loaded Pockets

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    I don't know if this is true for all of michigan, but my campus police building is also used as as a weapons storage area.. so people bring guns and knives in there all the time to store.

    What about post offices or libraries, are either of them 'restricted' as far as knives go?
     
  9. papacrapas87

    papacrapas87 Loaded Pockets

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    I'm wondering that too...

    If you take the definition of government building = any place where your tax dollars go... then it seems like most places we'd be going could be restricted... :thumbsdown:

    I know cliff mentioned gun carry in drivers licensing buildings... but what about knives? are they restricted also?

    All this talk makes me feel like we need to leave our edc knives for a huge portion of places we may visit... :brickwall:
     
  10. rueingeni

    rueingeni Loaded Pockets

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    I know that cutlerylover (who is a postal worker) carries knives at work, but I don't know if he gets an exception because he is an employee. I doubt it but I don't know for sure.

    I've never worried much about libraries but at post offices I normally either leave my knife in the car or put it in my pocket so the clip isn't visible.

    Also public universities get quite a few tax dollars but most of them allow pocket knives, at least in the US.
     
  11. P35

    P35 Loaded Pockets

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    decided i :include:
     
  12. xxecatxx

    xxecatxx Empty Pockets

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    I've carried a multi tool on my belt in a library and no-one cared, but im not sure if that's illegal here in Michigan. :popcorn:
     
  13. popedandy

    popedandy Loaded Pockets

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    The rules on knives in Federal government buildings are pretty clear. You can find the in Title 18 U.S. Code, Chapter 44, Section 930. That is the section that covers firearms and dangerous weapons in federal buildings. The section that applies to knives reads:

    "(2) The term "dangerous weapon" means a weapon, device,
    instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is
    used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious
    bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket
    knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length."

    If I remember correctly, those rules do not apply to courts and airports. They can apply stricter rules.

    I could be wrong on this part, but I believe "pocket knife" refers specifically to folding knives.

    So the bottom line is, for federal buildings, a folder with a blade length of under 2.5" should be fine.
     
  14. HOMELAND SECURITY HAM

    HOMELAND SECURITY HAM Loaded Pockets

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    Well people never seem to amaze me. As a CCW instructor part of my job is to teach my students how to think. Here is a little piece of my CCW class. Did you ever leave your new auto insurance card in the envelope in your home after you got it, when the one in your walet or your car was expired? Did you ever wait until after your auto tag (license plate for you NY'ers) was expired before you put your new decal on the tag, Roll a stop sign, or maybe think that 10 MPH over the limit was ok and you probably wouldn't get stopped for that.

    Well why don"t we see if we can get away with a FELONY that we think is :censored:. I am not a gambler. There really are cops in this country that will issue tickets to other cops,contrary to popular belief.

    Now that you cit the federal law, that describes deadly weapons in a federal buildings, lets think this way. No its not an airport, true. We won't even throw into the equation that the 09-11-2001 planes were brought down with box cutters.

    Lets try to think this way. You walk in to a federal building and the security is privatized. The intellegent ultra high paid unarmed security guard from ______ security company, you fill in the blank, sees your knife. Since that building uses private security instead of the Federal Protective Service (Real federal security with the powers of arrest). They call 911, and the local police or sheriff has to respond. And he knows that this federal building is inside his town or county and he has jurisdiction. He knows that state law also applies in his jurisdiction and he needs an arrest, or just wants one. So he applies state law instead of federal law.

    Is is worth it? Even if the state drops the charges? Is it worth fighting it in court weather you win or lose? If you win, you took a ride to jail had your knife taken put in evidence, maybe had to wait to see a judge. I hope you were not arrested on 5pm when the building was closing on a friday night and had to wait until monday morning in jail until you could see a judge to get your bail set. That is before all your pre trial conferences, depositions of the guard and the arresting officer, attorneys fees, the court reporters fees, subpones fees for service to the guard and the officer, mileage and witness fees for comming to the deposition. State continuances and defence continuances etc..... As they say, If you beat the rap you didn't beat the ride. Maybe they even towed your car after hours from the federal building parking lot and gave you towing and storage fees. And then comes the bad press if they want to sensationalize it if they find out. They wouldn't really say "Concealed Weapons Permit Holder" gets arrested for bringing a knife into a federal building. And once again it puts a black eye on permit holders.

    Please change your mindset and try to think, Can a simple thing like this get me in trouble? If you think the answer is, if an officer has creative writing and wants to ruin your day maybe????? Please don't do it, our weapons are not just for utility, they are for our lives and our families. It is the same anology as flashlights, weather it is a key chain button light or a large multi cell flashlight. Look at a knife kubiton or anything else, it is not always like the commerical says (size matters), if it is a bowie knife or a micro swiss army knife that is 1 1/2 inches long to an idiot size does not always matter, if it passes the test for your local or state laws.

    Like I said in my eariler post, most cops are not bad guys, but you dont want to get the one that ruins your day. By the way, I dont recall reading about anybody lately that needed to carry in a federal building, I hope we don't.
     
  15. Sharpdogs

    Sharpdogs Uber Prepared

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    Good posts Homeland, I know of one cop who hates knives. He loves guns but for some reason he has taken a crusade against sharp pointy things. I gave hima Spyderco Endura when he graduated the academy :)
     
  16. jag-engr
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    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
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    I live in Arkansas and have never had any trouble with carrying pocketknives. Some courthouses have signs that say "No Pocketknives Allowed by Order of Judge _____ ." I always comply with these signs, though people usually aren't checked unless they look suspicious. I will generally make a practice of leaving my knife in the Jeep, just to be safe, but I frequently forget.

    The state universities have a maximum length restriction of 4.0", but in this state, most people don't get too excited about pocket knives as long as you're not in school zones, prisons, jails, court rooms, and the like where they are obviously prohibited.

    State law here allows single-edged knives, either folding or fixed, except for school zones. I always carry something that doesn't look aggressive, though, because many police officers don't understand state law. I've had officers tell me that the knife could not be longer than the width of the bearer's palm! :( He actually thought that was the state statute. I had another officer expalin that a bird & trout knie is designed for "one thing and one thing only - killing." This is while I was fishing at the river.
     
  17. chaosmagnet
    • GITD Manix 2XL Owner
    • In Omnia Paratus

    chaosmagnet Loaded Pockets

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    Where I live, they're very strict about blades in the courthouse. I leave them in the car, and I don't like it. The libraries and schools are no problem for my sharps. Still can't carry my pistol in the schools, dangit.
     
  18. papacrapas87

    papacrapas87 Loaded Pockets

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    Great post, very informative!

    I have just a few questions tho for my own clarification and understanding...

    By saying that the security may call 911 after seeing your knife, is that assuming that there were no metal detectors or other security measures? Because from what I know, if you placed your sharps in the bin for the metal detector, if they had an issue wouldn't they tell you to just put your knife in your car or that they'd hold it until you come out?... other than a possible exception if it is illegal in nature?

    I feel that for most places where there are no specific security measures, but where someone objects to you having a knife, they will just deny you entry until you put your knife away in car, etc...

    Of course, I can see where you're coming from in that if the security personnel has the desire to ruin your day, they can and will try...

    Thanks for any insight...
     
  19. papacrapas87

    papacrapas87 Loaded Pockets

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    I'm not sure about others replying to this post, but for me, personally, I do not own a gun or concealed carry...

    So, I understand your concern about the bad rep for permit holders, which I believe makes total sense and should be considered definitely, but wouldn't it foremost give a bad rep to knife owners / EDCers in general?

    My original question was with regards to knives and knife laws... of course other insights and concerns are welcome... I'm just confused as to whether your posts are addressing those with knife law concerns or the people who are permit holders as well...

    Thanks anyways for your posts! :)
     
  20. popedandy

    popedandy Loaded Pockets

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    I cited federal law because it applies to federal facilities. Since I work in the Washington, D.C. area where most folks, including local law enforcement officers, are aware of the regulations, and where the law enforcement officials know that there are federal regulations that apply specifically to federal facilities, I assumed that law enforcement personnel in general were aware of that. I also assumed that your average intelligent person would be able to read and understand the sign that must be posted by the entrance to every federal facility that tells you what you are not allowed to bring in. Perhaps I was too generous when I also, without justification, assumed that even the security employees sitting next to the sign and local law enforcement personnel are able to read.

    I also am a bit puzzled that a law enforcement officer would tell us that, rather than knowing the law and abiding by it, we need to figure out the mindset of every police officer and go by what the most hostile ones would do. In other words, you can't rely on obeying the law, you have to bow to the arbitrary whims of every law enforcement officer you may run into. Not only that, but you have to know what those whims are in advance. Thanks, but I'll take my chances with knowing and obeying the law. If a law enforcement officer tells me I'm wrong, I'll apologize and say I must have misunderstood the law. Hopefully things can be sorted out from there.

    I also don't understand the comment: "By the way, I dont recall reading about anybody lately that needed to carry in a federal building, I hope we don't. "

    The federal law I cited also says:
    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal
    facility, . . .

    Sections (a) and (b) read:
    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous
    weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned
    not more than 1 year, or both. (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weaponbe used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

    I'm not sure where the comment about carrying in a federal building came from. I don't see any references to that in any of the posts, but perhaps I'm overlooking something. BTW, I just noticed in one of Homehald Security Ham's earlier posts that he offered a simple definition of what constitutes a government building. If anyone wants to know what constitutes a _federal_ facility, it is defined in the statue I cited. It is online in several different places, so all you have to do is google it if you want to read the full text instead of just the extracts I posted.