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Has anyone actually -used- a kubaton or tactical pen here?

Discussion in 'Personal Security Devices & Self-Defense' started by Exdeath, Sep 20, 2011.

  1. Exdeath

    Exdeath Loaded Pockets

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    No offense, but I'm under the impression that the main purpose behind these is for 'pain compliance'. I can see the application if you work in a job that requires you to legally restrain and control violent people (orderly, cop, etc.), but I find it very hard to believe that people use them in 'self-defense' on any regular basis. If you're getting mugged or violently attacked there are more immediately forceful/less-less-lethal options to resort to, if you're frequently involved in lots of fistfights where you could be putting one to use you probably need to examine your behavior or the places you hang out at, and if you're using a kubaton to joint-lock/hurt the crap out of a drunken guy at a party or the dude who just insulted your mom, that just opens up a whole other can of worms.

    I mean, I just don't see how one fits into the force continuum between bare fists and lethal force in terms of practicality and reasonable force. People who have driven a tactical pen into a carjacker's eye socket are welcome to correct me, though.
     
  2. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Loaded Pockets

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    I have indeed used my kubaton in a real situation. With out getting into it I did not use it for "pain compliance" but as a striking tool, into the underside of the arm to make an attacker let go.
    Bare in mind I have had years and years of martial arts training with an instructor who favors the kubaton.
     
  3. edcer

    edcer Loaded Pockets

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    I'm under the impression that the main purpose behind these is for 'pain compliance
    Perhaps you can rethink this? If I strike someone with a kubotan and they let go and move on,that is a win for me.I have no need,generally,to hold on to someone.


    I find it very hard to believe that people use them in 'self-defense' on any regular basis.
    Is regular use of a self defense tool a standard? I carry several tools I haven't had to use.Should I quit carrying a spare tire,a TQ ect. all of those things could help me in some situation.

    If you're getting mugged or violently attacked there are more immediately forceful/less-less-lethal options to resort to,
    Could you expand on this statement?
    It is just another tool in the box to use as necessary.
    I mean, I just don't see how one fits into the force continuum between bare fists and lethal force in terms of practicality and reasonable force
    Really? Why limit your options? Is your plan to go from fists to lethal force? Reasonable force might be using a less lethal tool first,OC ,kubotan,sharp tool.

    People who have driven a tactical pen into a carjacker's eye socket are welcome to correct me, though
    .
    Why have you framed your post this way? What exactly are you looking for? Discussion or validation of your thoughts?:shrug:
     
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  4. Exdeath

    Exdeath Loaded Pockets

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    Why are people grabbing you in the first place, and are you going to be able to draw and deploy one effectively in that situation? And if you can, I'm just saying that I would think they're more effective for joint locks than wailing away on somebody like Jason Bourne.

    If you want to carry one, go wild. I just feel for most people they aren't necessary, or that the roles they perform could be filled better by another implement (pepper spray, situational awareness).

    If you're being attacked or threatened with lethal-force weapons (I doubt muggers carry tasers), ideally, if you can't fulfil your duty to retreat you're going to want to respond with lethal force as well in terms of survival, innit? I can't really see going up with a tactical pen against someone with a knife/gun unless you're Bruce Lee.

    What situations require that 'sweet spot' of force that just falls in between fisticuffs and lethal force that aren't the sort that would usually be handled by a trained professional? Usually aggressive/boisterous people who need to be controlled to avoid escalating the situation. Forgive me if I think that in most of these cases, an average person that pulls out a kubaton/tacpen and tries to thwack the miscreant is just going to make him even angrier and violent, and if he's already started attacking...well, see my point about drawing and deploying one. And how often do you need to handle these sorts of people if it isn't your job (if you work in a mental hospital/arrest disorderly people)? Do you find yourself getting into heated arguments a lot? Live in an area full of homeless people that squat on your lawn?

    In non-lethal situations, I can see pepper spray being useful due to its ability to incapacitate and its range (which, in some situations, would make it more useful than a close-lethal-force-tool such as a knife). Kubotan...'closing the distance' with an already aggressive person is already a bad idea (and going to look really bad when you claim 'self-defense' later).

    I was being hyperbolic, if that wasn't obvious enough already. I don't have any agenda, although my views have been slightly nuanced by reading this (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/strikeenhancers.htm) Marc MacYoung phrases the points he's trying to make better than I could ever do.
     
  5. Synaptic Misfire
    • In Omnia Paratus

    Synaptic Misfire Loaded Pockets

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    In the civilized world there is no duty to retreat.
     
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  6. edcer

    edcer Loaded Pockets

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    I scanned your link he has his points,I guess. He went on and on about an impact tool not being a force multiplier and talking about physics.Yeah,I got it,it is a simple thing to understand. However my point about a kubotan is that it concentrates the force in a small area,so my hammer fist with a kubotan will be more effective. Sherlock Holmes would say elementary Watson. As we get older we need all the help we can get.Thugs tend to be in certain age groups and tend to attack when they have an advantage. Not looking like a prey item,being situationally aware are all good things,but you can not count on them to protect you from all thugs all the time. So, having a plan and a way to implement a layered response seems like a good idea to me.You are free to do as you wish. I wrote this for more that just you,if it helps someone great.If it is disregarded,I will just continue to do what I do.




     
  7. Kilted1

    Kilted1 Loaded Pockets

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    I'm curious as to the definition of the term "reasonable force". It's been my experience that people who use this term tend to think that any force is unreasonable and you should have been able to talk or otherwise extract yourself non-violently from the situation. I'm not saying you're one of those but I don't know that you aren't. If an attacker is crazy, drunk, speaks a different language, etc, force is going to be necessary and that means a judgement call on the part of the victim. I know several people who carry an array of tools that can be put to defensive use, most cops have four or more. After that it's about training so you can instantaneously make the judgement call and not end up killing or maiming someone who didn't really need it.

    Edit: Was called away in mid post. Please forgive issues already covered.
     
  8. Exdeath

    Exdeath Loaded Pockets

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    In the civilized world things such as judicial systems exist. Try explaining that to a court - if you have a chance to retreat and withdraw, and instead choose to stay behind and engage, then that isn't self-defense, that's fighting (I'm not discussing castle laws here), and going to be seen in a wholly different light. You're not trying to protect anything other than your pride.

    Reasonable force is a legal term. I don't get to define it, you don't get to define it, but the courts do. Generally speaking, the force used must be appropriate to the situation, and not escalate it - it isn't exactly kosher to respond to verbal abuse with your fists or pull a gun on someone threatening to punch you, for example. Just like cops have a use-of-force-continuum, civvies are more or less legally bound not to escalate their use of force (unless you're hindered by means of being disabled, outnumbered, etc.).
     
  9. Monocrom

    Monocrom Loaded Pockets

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    Both items can also be used as a hammer-fist enhancer. And, they work better in that regard instead of pain compliance.
     
  10. Synaptic Misfire
    • In Omnia Paratus

    Synaptic Misfire Loaded Pockets

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    Trust me there is no duty to retreat where I live we actually have a law that says as long as you are legally present(no trespassing, committing a felony etc) then you have the right to defend yourself without a duty to retreat. Why should I have to run from an a$$hole who is intent on depriving me of my rights? Now disparate force response is another issue, unless your life is threatened or a forcible felony is committed then you are right that the defender must not exceed the level of force used against him.

    Edit: Personally, learning effective de-escalation techniques is one of the best self defense weapons there is. No sense in needlessly engaging in violence if you can just turn the situation around. Additionally situational awareness will keep you out of 99.99999999% of situations, BUT it's that .000000001% of situations that the weapons are there for.
     
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  11. Zatx

    Zatx Loaded Pockets

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    I use my tactical pen everyday. Heck I use it more than any other item I EDC.

    :)
     
  12. Monocrom

    Monocrom Loaded Pockets

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    +1

    I still recall the time I had to calm a situation using my verbal skills. I was dealing with a freak of nature who was clearly abusing steroids. It couldn't have been anymore obvious if a needle and syringe were hanging off of his butt. (The guy was about 5' 6" and he was wider than he was taller. And by a considerable margin. If he was fat, that would be one thing. But it was all muscle.) He apparently thought I had disrespected him. His girlfriend was close by. That didn't help. The freak couldn't look weak in front of his girlfriend. Thankfully she had enough sense to stay out of it. (Not enough sense to not date a guy who is so insecure that he willingly mutilated his own body from the inside out, and could charge other folks money to view him the way they would in the old days at a carnival sideshow full of other freaks. But she had some sense at least.)

    In such a situation, it's important to let the person be able to back down without looking as though he did. Despite being angry, I could tell the guy really didn't want the situation to get physical. I'm a big guy myself. I'm no artificially juiced-up freak of nature. But I'm a big guy. Would have been a lot easier if his girlfriend wasn't there to see the whole confrontation. If he backs down without me finding a way to let him "save face," in his mind; she might think he's less of a man and possibly dump him. Like I said, I knew I was clearly dealing with someone ridiculously insecure.

    I found a way he could back down, while both of us got to save face. It's all about identifying what's most important to the guy in front of you who is angry at you. Use that to your advantage. Guys calm down real quick when they realize "Oh no! I might lose what I truly love if I do something stupid." At first, the freak was afraid of losing his woman if he appeared unmanly. But that wasn't what he cared about most. He backed down, and I left.
     
  13. Tango 191

    Tango 191 Loaded Pockets

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    Thank you ^^^

    and to answer the op post, no i never had to use a kubaton, however i have deployed my baton on a few people who needed some "encouragement" (on my job) to get out of my face, and to let them know if they came any closer to me that they would be in a world of hurt.
     
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  14. curlyfry562

    curlyfry562 Loaded Pockets

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    They have come in handy when rough housing with friends, although I have never used any tactical variant, a simple sharpie in the armpit will make just about anyone get off of you.
     
  15. Kontractor

    Kontractor Loaded Pockets

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    It's just another option. I see no harm in carrying one.

    As far as appropriate use of force... most of us carry knives. Heck, I carry a multi tool (Gerber Evo) on my belt. If the need arose, I'm sure I could stab someone with it. I can write with a tactical pen even though I may never strike someone with it.

    Basically, you never know if you will need something so if you want to carry it in compliance with local laws, go for it!
     
  16. Dusty

    Dusty Loaded Pockets

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    If you have the ability to use one properly then you have the right to defend yourself. Of course your intention should always be to get away at the earliest opportunity but there's no point getting a little out of the way only for your attacker to get up and follow you even more angry than he was before. A kubaton when used for striking will cause a little muscle damage (depending where you hit), enough to render a limb useless maybe but essentially it's not much more than a metal pokey stick.

    I know I'd rather reach for a kubaton than a knife if those were my only options. Equally a kubaton is not designed to maim or cause permanent damage, a key could be used but would leave nasty lacerations, a knife I should think is obviously going to ruin someone, pepper spray isn't always freely available to normal civvie folk, nor are tasers but tasers can also lead to death as per some poor bugger in England not so long ago. At the same time it would be easy to pick something up, a rock or brick, a metal bar, a bin, a chair and bludgeon the assailant......
     
  17. neutrontech
    • In Omnia Paratus

    neutrontech Loaded Pockets

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    Yup, I agree entirely. And i will defend that right till the day I die.Nobody, including government doesnt have the right to take that from you, no matter where you live. People lose this right because they let their government take it. As my signature states, Mr. Franklin had it right.
     
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  18. Condition1

    Condition1 Loaded Pockets

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    in my state, michigan, you have the right to self defense anywhere you are legally allowed to be. basically, you can defend yourself legally as long as you are not committing a crime at the time. if you are committing a crime, you have NO right to self defense.

    i think that less than lethal weapons, even knives, are trouble and i would not use them for defense. the only safe way to deal with a steroid freak or karate boy freak (i dislike them both, if they are the aggressive sort), that is attacking you, is a gun. if someone attacks you, a large caliber bullet to the boiler room will deescalate the situation.
     
  19. VinnyP
    • In Omnia Paratus

    VinnyP Loaded Pockets

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    Surely the need to retreat or defend yourself means you are not in the civilised world. Just because you don't have a duty to do something doesn't automatically mean it's a bad idea.
     
  20. Monocrom

    Monocrom Loaded Pockets

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    Use a firearm against an unarmed steroid freak or martial artist, and expect to get charged with manslaughter. Even in the states that are 2nd Amendment friendly. Unless you're disabled, or a very petite female, or a very frail old man; good luck convincing a jury it was self-defense.

    What a less-lethal option allows you to do is defend yourself without using excessive force. The other issue is, you shoot a steroid freak, he's not likely to just back off or fall over. The adrenaline and steroids are likely to kick in. Now you have the equivalent of an enraged and wounded large animal that is coming right at you! Any witnesses are going to tell the jury that the two of you were arguing, you suddenly pulled out a gun and shot the unarmed muscle builder. Then that dude came after you in order to defend himself. That's what a jury will hear, that's what it'll look like to the witnesses. Now the roles have switched. Steroid freak is the defender, and you're the cold-blooded S.O.B. who shot an unarmed man.