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glock 17...your honest opinion.

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by rickinFL, Apr 26, 2012.

  1. 0dBm

    0dBm Loaded Pockets

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    "It would also be easier for your significant other to use in your absence as well."
    I disagree with this since many women would find wielding-then-discharging a projectile-propelling device approximating the general dimensions of an upright vacuum cleaner handle but weighing 5-6 times more to be obtrusive and appalling except by those generously-proportioned, donning a cap with the horns of an ungulate mammal, and of the Scandinavian pirate persuasion.
     
  2. VinnyP
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    VinnyP Loaded Pockets

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    There are downsides, the barrel is very long for confined spaces, weapon retention is not so easy, it's very loud indoors, it's hard to use with a light and even in very well trained hands shot to shot speed is very slow.
     
  3. chrischoi

    chrischoi Loaded Pockets

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    I'd say HK, Sig, HK or Sig.
    ;) I prefer DA/SA.

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
     
  4. Bullzaye

    Bullzaye Loaded Pockets

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    While the shotgun is certainly a very effective home defense weapon, it does have some disadvantages, which some have already noted. Another point to keep in mind when considering a shotgun as a HD weapon is the difficulty/inability to use it one-handed. If you end up clearing your home, it's advantageous to have a free hand to open doors and such. Even dismissing home-clearing, it would be difficult to imagine keeping an eye on your bedroom door waiting for a potential intruder to enter, while holding a phone in one hand talking to 911, and trying to hold a shotgun in the other hand.

    Tim
     
  5. rickinFL

    rickinFL Loaded Pockets

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    While not the original advice I asked for, I appreciate the shotgun suggestion. To be honest, this may be the way I'll lean. Have to agree rising from deep sleep and going 0-100 would test even the most seasoned tactical pro. I am also not one for maintenance so I do like to the idea of less maintenance. Thanks for all of the advice.
     
  6. rickinFL

    rickinFL Loaded Pockets

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    Wondering how you were able to describe my wife so well? This point is very well taken as my wife is an averaged sized woman. Perhaps one weapon of each type would be the answer. Also thinking that perhaps the 19 would be better option for her smaller hands. Extended clip for mine.
     
  7. paaiyan

    paaiyan Loaded Pockets

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    Personally, I don't like Glocks. They don't fit my hand well, so that's just my personal opinion. I carry a S&W M&P .40c. The full-size M&P 9mm is a very, very comfortable gun to shoot. I keep my .40c on my nightstand at night in its holster, next to my flashlight. Round chambered. Mine doesn't have a safety other than not pulling the trigger. I also keep a Remington 870 with a 6-round tube loaded with #4 buck leaned against the nightstand. Safety off, no round chambered.

    My wife sleeps with her Kahr CW9 in its holster on her nightstand. Also chambered, no safety.
     
  8. rickinFL

    rickinFL Loaded Pockets

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    Quick story. My next door neighbor had a guy sneak in thru the dog door, find their car keys and take off in their car. Dogs never woke and neither did the neighbor. Still question how that happened but would not want to wake with my own gun looking down on me. Your nightstand placement reminded me of that. In my situation, alarm would go off first. Still don't understand how he did not wake or the dogs. Spooky.
     
  9. paaiyan

    paaiyan Loaded Pockets

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    I don't have dogs, don't really like them. So that's not applicable for me. That's definitely creepy though.
     
  10. rickinFL

    rickinFL Loaded Pockets

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    I've got a toy manchester terrier. Best guard dog I've ever seen. 11 lbs of fury. Her bark is what is important to me. Notifies me of anything even when she is dead asleep.
    Thanks again for all the advice. Learning as I go so keep the advice coming.
     
  11. Ktowngunner
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    Ktowngunner Loaded Pockets

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    Gather your rocks, you're going to want to stone me in a minute.

    I don't believe a shotgun is a wise choice for home defense. At least it isn't the BEST choice.

    As others have mentioned there are some serious manuviabileraty concerns with a shotgun. It is extrememly difficult to maintain retention of a larger weapon while moving through a house.

    Unless you have children/others in the home, you shouldn't be moving through your home. You should be hunkered down on the phone with 911 waiting for the intruder to open your door.

    I don't recommend trying to clear your home by yourself. It looks easy in movies and tv, but in real life adds a risk that just isn't worth it most of the time. Any "tactical" guy I know, military or police, would rather have a great defensive position and wait for the bad guy to come to them than try to clear a house by themselves.

    Responding police would much rather know where you are in the home when they get on scene than trying to guess which guy with a gun going through the house is the good guy and which is the bad.

    00 buck will penetrate through walls just as much if not more than 9mm rounds. If you have others in your home take that into consideration no matter what you're shooting. The last thing you want to do is hurt a family member or neighbor with a round you fired. Remember you're responsible for every bullet you fire, even if you're firing at a bad guy. If you hit someone, it's on you. Maybe not legally, but it's something you'll deal with for the rest of your life.

    As far as maintenance, a glock wouldn't require any more or less than your shotgun would. You should train with both, you should clean/lubricate both after training. Both are extremely durable weapon platforms that can take punshment and continue to perform.

    As far as waking up and manipulating a weapon system with the shotgun you'll either have to release the pump and shuck it (if it isn't already chambered) and turn the safety off. That's after getting it out of the trigger lock or what ever other safety device you use. With a Glock you rack a round (again if needed) and fire. If you get a bedside safe (such as a gunvault) you can keep it loaded and just punch in a quick finger code. I don't see a manipulation advantage to a shotgun at 3am when you're woken up from a dead sleep.

    Shotguns have their place, they can be fantastic weapons!!! I own several and carried them daily for years. Just realize that in a confined space in a home with a full size (legal 18" barrel) shotgun there are major draw backs to work around. And without training you could be putting yourself in a disadvantage. No matter how you move, the barrel of a shotgun will enter the room before you do, leaving it open to someone hiding around the corner to grab it. Even with training that's a risk you take.

    Whew, somehow I have a tendency to turn everything into a novel. Sorry about that. No matter what you choose, get something you're comfortable using, then practice every chance you get. It doesn't matter what gun you have if you can't use it well when it matters most. If a shotgun works better for your situation then by all means get it and use it! Just make sure to get some trianing to learn how to deal with/compensate for/be aware of those drawbacks.
     
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  12. Gryffin
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    Gryffin Loaded Pockets

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    I’ve long relied on a shotgun for home defense.

    I live in a condo with neighbors on both sides, so over penetration is a concern for me. At across-the-room ranges, even birdshot is quite deadly; heavy winter clothing can reduce penetration, though.

    My solution is a variation on that: first two rounds are #6 birdshot, next two are steel BB turkey loads, the rest are magnum buckshot. I figger, even if I miss with the birdshot, odds are the Bad Guy will turn tail and run; if the birdshot doesn’t penetrate, odds are the next two will; but if four rounds haven’t caused the Bad Guy to reconsider his life choices, then I’ve got bigger concerns than my neighbors’ safety.

    If your wife can't handle a 12 gauge, you might consider a 20 gauge. At across-the-room ranges it's just as deadly, but has about 40% less recoil. Not as many choices in guns an ammo as 12 gauge, but plenty enough.

    I think the supposed disadvantage of a shotgun in room clearing is misplaced. You should NEVER "clear your home" if you know there's a possibly armed intruder. Ask any cop, clearing a room or building is THE most difficult and dangerous thing in their job description, and they're trained for it. Call 9-1-1, announce loudly that you're armed and the cops are on the way, hunker down in an easily defensible location, and let the pros handle it. The safety of you and your family are worth more than anything they may be rifling through in your dining room.

    You almost can't buy a phone anymore that doesn't have a speakerphone feature. Problem solved. ;)

    I’ve practiced my home defense drill, the barrel length hasn’t been a problem. Then again, I’m not clearing rooms.

    As for weapon retention, my defensive position is my bedroom doorway overlooking the stairwell. (There’s a closet door right next to it, giving me two door frames worth of lumber between me and the stairs.) Even Usain Bolt couldn’t make it up the stairs and get within arm’s length before I’ve emptied all eight rounds at him. If he survives that hail of lead, the worst he can do is beat me over the head with it.

    Loudness? Really? If me and mine’s lives are in danger, that’s the least of my worries. I’d rather be deaf than dead.

    You do have a valid concern about using a shotgun with a separate light, but again, that’s only a concern if you’re moving with it. I’m not. I’ll have a flashlight on the floor pointed at the head of the stairs, it’ll provide enough light to see the whole stairway, without making me a target. And I’ve got a weapon light on the shotgun; yeah, I know, never point a gun at anything you don’t intend to shoot, but if I turn on that weaponlight, I do intend to shoot.
     
  13. paaiyan

    paaiyan Loaded Pockets

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    Ktown, I can agree with many of your points. Here's my take.

    Maneuvering: If you're going to clear your home then a shotgun is going to be more difficult to manipulate. However if you're just going to hunker down in your current location, they're great, and more effective stoppers than a handgun. I only have myself and my wife to worry about, so I don't have to clear rooms to make sure the family is safe. A shotgun is a great choice for me. If you have to move to the kids' rooms, a handgun might be a better choice for maneuverability. A shotgun on a sling still can't hurt. If you're on the way to the kids' rooms and you get pinned down pop off a few shots with the handgun to get the BG's head down and transition to the shotgun.

    Overpenetration: Definitely a concern with 00 or 000 buck. I have mine loaded with #4. #4 buck in a 2 3/4" shell is 27 .24cal pellets for my load. I believe they're pushed right around the speed of sound. Some will say a .22 is a poor self-defense choice, but I figure 27 .24cal pellets at the speed of sound is a different matter entirely. Overpenetration still a concern? Possibly, but less so than with 00.

    Stopping power: Shotguns beat handguns. Period. Like I said, my shotgun is loaded with #4 initially, but on the sling I have 3 more #4 shells, 5 #00 shells and 5 slugs. My handgun is loaded with .40 JHP.

    Maintenance: Meh. Same no matter what you get. You need to be intimately familiar with everything you have, and all of them are going to be about the same complexity.

    Scare factor: Saw someone else mention this. DO NOT rely on the sound of your shotgun's pumping to scare someone. If they came with a gun, they came looking for and expecting trouble. This is NOT someone with a rational mindset or they wouldn't be a criminal in the first place. Maybe the sound will scare away a punk kid looking for a quick score, but if you end up with a hardened criminal in your home you had better be ready to do some shooting.

    Initial preparation of the weapon: If you have kids, I can see needing a safe. I don't. I keep my M&P holstered so I don't accidentally hit the trigger grabbing for it. Once unholstered it's ready to go bang without any further manipulation. As for my shotgun, leaned against my nightstand with 6 rounds in the tube, none chambered. I keep the safety off and the "hammer down" on an empty chamber by ensuring it's empty twice and pulling the trigger. I don't need to worry about the slide release.

    Sound: Guns are loud, but you'd be surprised what your body will do under stress. Auditory exclusion is common in fight-or-flight situations when you get that sudden rush of adrenaline. It's a phenomenon of tachypsychia. Can the sound still cause problems later on? Physical damage is still a possibility, but your body during the situation will do strange things. Shotguns are loud, but so are handguns. Linky

    So like Ktown said, a lot depends on your situation. If you have kids in separate rooms you need to grab, my suggestion is a handgun as your primary and a shotgun with a sling as a backup. If it's just you or you and the missus and you don't have to move rooms, I suggest the shotgun as your primary and the handgun as backup. Having both is important to me. If there's a break-in and the missus woke up to grab an ill-timed glass of water from the kitchen, grab the handgun first. Personally I keep a bottle of water by my bedside as well, purely for the sake of convenience and laziness.

    My cell phone is also by my bedside so I don't have to leave the room to call police.
     
    Last edited by paaiyan, May 8, 2012
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  14. VinnyP
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    I agree but on the whole I'd rather be alive and not deaf if there is an alternative. That said even after a 12 gauge round indoors at close quarters you and yours will probably not be deaf, but they will struggle to hear what you say for a while which is a bad thing if you want to be able to communicate with them. Being able to hear is quite useful when trying to deal with a threat not least because you can hear the calls of the good guys coming in which has the potential to go very wrong.
    Which is great if you are in bed when you realise what is happening and the bad guys are downstairs. It's an old but valid phrase that no plan survives contact with the enemy.
     
    Last edited by VinnyP, May 8, 2012
  15. Gryffin
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    Gryffin Loaded Pockets

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    To my mind, the idea is to prove that you really do have a gun. It's easy to claim you have a gun, but it the Bad Guy doesn't believe you, he might decide to take his chances. That racking sound makes it unequivocably clear that you're actually armed and intend to defend yourself.

    I forgot to mention it, but I do the same. Safe, but easy to get into action. In my case, tho, it's out of sight, right behind the door of the closet at my defensive position.
     
  16. Gryffin
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    Gryffin Loaded Pockets

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    Can't say I have first-hand experience with either, but I'm pretty sure either a shotgun or 9mm indoors will leave your ears ringing pretty badly. The overall sound level of a shotgun is higher, but the higher-velocity 9mm has more of a sonic "crack." From what I've heard, most people who've been in that sorta situation can't recall even hearing the shots; adrenaline does funny things to your brain like that.

    I still think that if I open fire, there isn't gonna be much in the way of subsequent conversation. If the Bad Guy somehow gets past me, the Love o' My Life will be right there with the .357, I won't need to tell her what to do. Same drill for both of us: shoot until the threat is neutralized, then put the gun down and wait for the cavalry to arrive.
     
  17. paaiyan

    paaiyan Loaded Pockets

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    Put a note in my previous post about sound.
     
  18. Gryffin
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    Gryffin Loaded Pockets

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    You're right, you can't plan for every possibility, but that's the most likely scenario. It's called playing the odds. If we're upstairs, I can't imagine the Bad Guy getting anywhere near the stairs without the dog announcing his presence; and if we're downstairs when somebody tries to break in, we won't be downstairs for long.
     
  19. Ktowngunner
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    Ktowngunner Loaded Pockets

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    Paaiyan - I agree completely! If you're in a situation where you can hunker down bedside with a shotgun and wait that's a fantastic option! If you need to go to a different room (in my case my children's) a handgun suits you better. Having both... now you're really in business! It's always good to have options!!!
     
  20. yukon2004

    yukon2004 Loaded Pockets

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    The G17 is a fine handgun and especially with the right ammo, will be excellent for home defense. I have a ton of experience with Glocks, and IMO you just can't beat the "bang for your buck." It's a very reliable, proven handgun that works.

    For what it's worth, I keep both a .40 S&W Glock and a Remington 870 12ga by my bed.