1. Please update your bookmarks to use https://www.edcforums.com/
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Are you a current member with account or password issues?

    Please visit following page for more information

    Dismiss Notice

Discussion on the Merits of Pepper Spray

Discussion in 'Personal Security Devices & Self-Defense' started by Holliday, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. jag-engr
    • Administrator

    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2007
    Messages:
    5,170
    Likes Received:
    3,621
    Just because there have been instances in which pepper spray did not work (for whatever reason), it is illogical to conclude that it is ineffective. Often, guns are applied ineffectively, as well. Here is an example.

    No one is claiming that pepper spray is a magical paralyzing foam that stops all badness when it is deployed. It needs to hit the eyes for maximum effect or at least the mouth and nose. Firing a gun and missing is just as ineffective as firing pepper spray and missing.

    The value of pepper spray relates to its portability and, most significantly, to its almost universal legality.
     
    Stutz, Holliday and baccar-3 like this.
  2. Ethos
    • +1 Supporter

    Ethos Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2016
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    616
    I wasn't answering for him, just making an observation. Your the one that posted in an open forum and stated your position, that leaves it open to interpretation from all those reading.

    I don't know you may have real world experience, but you speak only on the science. There is more to science than what is on paper or done in a controlled environment.
     
  3. Holliday

    Holliday Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2007
    Messages:
    455
    Likes Received:
    1,402
    LOL- you're killing me, Ethos. What you observed was me asking another member a question, that you answered.

    My questions to H2H:
    To which you replied:
    Look, I'm not mad or frustrated or anything, but if you can't recognize that for what it is, then I guess I'm just at a loss. IDK, maybe we can have some fun with it, start a poll or something on it. Lighten the mood.
     
  4. Ethos
    • +1 Supporter

    Ethos Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2016
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    616
    I was stating my opinion, I have nothing to prove.
     
  5. Holliday

    Holliday Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2007
    Messages:
    455
    Likes Received:
    1,402
    Right. Proving something would require, wait for it..... science, case study, data, objectivity, etc, which is why I point to the studies, not my opinion. Things you've already said you don't put much stock in.
     
  6. Ethos
    • +1 Supporter

    Ethos Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2016
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    616
    You are obviously always right. Studies are done under controlled conditions. Animals, and humans for that matter, have unpredictable reactions, you can't calculate that.

    Scientists think they know everything there is to know about everything, they make a claim to be right, then they change their mind, and then change it again. You can predict a constant (although sometimes they argue about that), but you can't predict what a free willed animal will do with 100% certainty.

    If we ever hike together you spray him in the eyes and I'll shoot him and then we can laugh all the way home, or not, depending on whether either of us hit our intended mark.
     
  7. Holliday

    Holliday Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2007
    Messages:
    455
    Likes Received:
    1,402
    You obviously do not understand or care to understand how these things work. Case studies are often performed by collecting data from real-world events. In this context, that means studying cases of actual, real-world uses and incidents involving OC spray, bear or otherwise.

    Do yourself a favor and stop posting hear until you understand these concepts.
     
  8. jag-engr
    • Administrator

    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2007
    Messages:
    5,170
    Likes Received:
    3,621
    Staff Announcement

    Let's keep this thread civil and be polite.

    This subject can be discussed without getting hostile. Sweeping assertions or personal attacks are not helpful.
     
  9. Holliday

    Holliday Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2007
    Messages:
    455
    Likes Received:
    1,402
    Sadly, due to cognitive biases and lack of open-mindedness with some, I'm starting to question if it is even possible.

    I'm always happy to help with any questions, so if anyone ever needs anything on this subject matter, please feel free to PM me.
     
  10. 0dBm

    0dBm Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2006
    Messages:
    5,428
    Likes Received:
    3,821
    I am not as knowledgeable about this product group as others responding to this thread.

    I have only studied 10 documented cases of actual usage, witnessed 3 training scenarios (including myself), and witnessed 2 cases of actual field usage.

    The 10 documented cases resulted in a failure to stop of 20%. That maybe attributed to the lower concentration of OC in the products used and the quality of those products. The cases occurred in the late 70s and early 80s so refinement of those products may invariably NOT be on the same level as those available in today's market.

    Of the 3 training scenarios, it worked superbly well on me; however, I am an older man that, although, quite healthy and physically fit, may not be able to tolerate its effects and the other two younger trainees. The other two trainees were young, physically fit, well-rested just prior to the test, and were well nourished. Although they were able to function adequately enough to effect an aggressive action within twelve seconds after contact, they were effectively "stopped" during the first three.

    I can't go into the facts of the two field scenarios. I can only report what I observed since I was about 50 feet from the scene. Local authorities were the users. the two cases occurred simultaneously. Both "bobbed & weaved" so that the officers could not achieve a direct hit; frequently landing the spray on center mass, appendages, or in the atmosphere. It was only when the individuals were against a wall and had nowhere else to run that the spray functioned long enough for its effect to allow the officers to apprehend them. The initial blast had minimal effect and required 2-3 more on each to reach maximum effect. Each eventually capitulated. This was the opposite effect vice the two trainees.

    I surmise that the spray had opposite effect because the trainees were standing still and took a full blast of the spray, but the runners were moving too much (to try to effect apprehension) for the spray to achieve full effect.

    Certain questions can be gleaned from this post as follows:

    What were the environmental conditions?
    • The training event was conducted during daylight hours in a open field with little if any wind that day.
    • The field event occurred at dusk in an urban environment with noticeable wind.
    What was the physical condition of the individuals in the field event?
    • They both appeared to be in very good physical health because they ran about a half a mile before apprehension.
    Based on the VERY SMALL population sample and the uncontrolled (varied) conditions during these (adhoc) events, I cannot conclude the overall efficacy of this product group. I just KNOW that it works on me, however, if I was determined enough to try to avoid being blasted with the spray by maintaining adequate distance, I can do just that and so can another.

    If there is adequate distance, then the would-be attacker's contact attack is effectively neutralized but can initiate another attack by throwing an object or allowing another attacker to take action.

    Pepper spray in the smaller, easier to conceal packaging is a "get off me" device. It is more effective than a flashlight for self-defense because it has the longer term bodily-function disruption capability (if used properly) vice just a flashlight's fleeting sensory overload effect.

    Despite its more significant merits as a direct result of the development particularly in the past 20 years, I don't carry pepper spray because I have other, more lethal options available at my disposal the subject of which is beyond the scope of this thread.

    I won't hesitate to recommend carrying and using this product group; however, just like any form of self-defense, I strongly urge an in-depth understanding of its merits and shortcommings.
     
    jag-engr and Holliday like this.