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Concealed Carry License opinions?

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by darth_guy101, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. DavyJ

    DavyJ Loaded Pockets

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    SAKplumber, I hope you don't think that I was suggesting any of that? For my part I wasn't really touching on the Militia part much. I was more interested in how legislation on how to bear arms is construed in reference to the right to bear arms. So, to make it a bit absurd for a moment, is it permissible to walk down the street in an American town with a live katana strapped to your back? Or a spear? Or a spiked club? Does the right to bear arms only apply to firearms, and if not why then are there restrictions on knife carry (blade length and so on)?

    Like I said, as an outsider it is sometimes a little difficult to understand the thrust (hah!) of the 2nd Amendment.

    @11C1P, I am also curious about requirements. Is it prudent to allow someone with no experience nor understanding to strap on a loaded firearm and stroll around in public? Surely a minimum safety requirement is sensible, by insisting on some training/getting a licence, if only for the protection of the innocent against unfortunate and avoidable accidents? Please note I am not against gun carry - probably would do it myself if permitted, though fairly sure I would never need it - just trying to get my head around how it all works in the US.
     
  2. 11C1P
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    11C1P Loaded Pockets

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    The founding fathers were fairly clear about what a militia was. It definitely wasn't as much of the media says now, the national guard which started in 1916.


    The Founding Fathers on the Second Amendment

    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

    "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
    Richard Henry Lee
    writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.

    "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
    Zachariah Johnson
    Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."

    "… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
    Philadelphia Federal Gazette
    June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
    Article on the Bill of Rights

    "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
    Samuel Adams
    quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

    The Founding Fathers on Arms

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
    George Washington
    First President of the United States
    "The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
    Thomas Paine
    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    Richard Henry Lee
    American Statesman, 1788
    "The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot
    "Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot
    "Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
    Thomas Jefferson
    Third President of the United States
    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … "
    Thomas Jefferson
    letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.
    "The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    Alexander Hamilton
    The Federalist Papers at 184-8
     
  3. 11C1P
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    11C1P Loaded Pockets

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    I don't what part of "shall not be infringed" is difficult to interpret. I just can't wrap my head around that.
     
  4. UnlikelyEngineer

    UnlikelyEngineer Loaded Pockets

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    You're :censored: :censored: right.
     
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  5. UnlikelyEngineer

    UnlikelyEngineer Loaded Pockets

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    Tell that to California... that's some seriously unconstitutional :censored:right there, but hey, their constituents elected them.
     
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  6. DavyJ

    DavyJ Loaded Pockets

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    I'm sorry but my question concerned the manner in which weapons are carried, not the right to carry. Being required to carry your sidearm in a holster, for instance, is an infringement of your right to bear arms? Well, I just can't wrap my head around that!

    Actually I'm sorry I even asked.
     
  7. UnlikelyEngineer

    UnlikelyEngineer Loaded Pockets

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    Trying to tell me how how I can carry (with or without holster), when I can carry, where I can carry, why I can carry, what I can carry, etc. are all attacks on my rights and are very much infringements on my right to bear arms.

    So to answer your question: yes. Free people don't need permission, despite what our government thinks. Yes I do have a permit but do I think they are constitutional? :censored: no.

    I should move to Alaska...
     
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  8. kd7dvd
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    kd7dvd EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    To me, the way the amendment is phrased suggests that you can't possibly have a militia until you have a right to bear arms already in place.

    Because the invasion happens in ten minutes and we aren't getting any more organized than we already are. Go!
     
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  9. twogunmojo

    twogunmojo Banned

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    at the time it was written the phrase "well regulated" had more relationship to "well functioning" than it would have to "highly restricted" which is the way that most liberals want to have it interpreted...

    ben franklin was known to have invented some very "well regulated" clocks...they were not "well regulated" as to who could own and use them...
     
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  10. DavyJ

    DavyJ Loaded Pockets

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    I'm out of this thread.

    (This is not directed at everyone here)
    It was a simple request for information and education. Instead I get hostility for even asking a question. Not appreciated.
     
  11. twogunmojo

    twogunmojo Banned

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    my apologies..i was not referring to you as being liberal but rather the people in my country who hate all things "guns" and have to resort to interpretations that have never been made and history that has never happened...

    with regards to the militia the u.s annotated code section 309 to 312 or thereabouts talks about the "unorganized militia" which is basically every male with a gun who is not a member of the "organized militia" or national guard...
     
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  12. swany66675
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    swany66675 Loaded Pockets

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    California has a long history of being antigun at first the rules were ment as a way to oppress Indians, Mexicans, and non land owners. What I find odd about California is they have haven't learned from their own history.

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.
     
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  13. SAKplumber
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    SAKplumber EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    I'll just leave this here.
    Also, I didn't think Billy worked for the NRA before. I'm gonna guess that he had enough common sense videos out there that the NRA hired him.

     
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  14. AK Adventurer

    AK Adventurer Ice, Ice, Tigre

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    :rofl:
    ya, but its not like the rest of the country has done much better! ;):rolleyes:

    I keep waiting for the PCSRK ((Peoples Communist,Socialist Republic of Kalifornia)) ;):p to succeed from the union... We plant some nice medium sized bombs along a certain fault line, and I bet we can get the whole danged state to drop off, they can start their own island nation... :uhhuh:
     
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  15. kd7dvd
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    kd7dvd EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    Anyone who's boxed knows never to lead with your rights. Lead with your responsibilities: it's a stronger attack.

    For example:

    I have a responsibility to protect my family, my property, perhaps some loved ones who aren't related to me, or my neighbors, or my community, or people at the mall, or my country, or some combination thereof. Circumstances vary. I probably even have a responsibility to protect my self (if only to keep myself able to address my other responsibilities).

    To carry out that responsibility, I have a right to the tools necessary for it. I have a right to guns, knives, knucks, my rapier wit, whatever I think I can use.

    Luckily for me, I live in a country where (by and large) the law of the land confirms these rights for me. The Constitution does not grant me a right; my responsibilities and duties do that. And we, as a people, each sharing the burden of our responsibilities, have written the law to support ourselves in it. (Not saying we can't do better, of course...)

    Yelling and screaming "I carry a gun because I have a right to" is counterproductive, and denies your responsibilities as a citizen and human being. It's an insult to your own integrity. When people ask why you carry a gun, please be able to articulate a better reason than "I have a right." I trust that you have one.

    And if you're not skilled with words and have trouble answering the question, then just be quiet. I, for one, will still trust you have a good reason. Don't prove me wrong.
     
  16. CSM-101
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    CSM-101 EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    The Roanoke (VA) Times published the names of VA CCW holders several years ago... and yanked it down a day later after the :censored: hit the fan.

    As to the OP's question, no I don't think I should need a CCW permit to carry. When you look at the 2nd Amendment and the principle of "Innocent
    until proven guilty" I see no grounds for requiring me to apply for a permit. At the least I'd like my CCW to allow me to buy a firearm without the
    background check... and a VA Senate Bill (Senate Bill 396) has been introduced to do just that. Fingers crossed.
     
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  17. UnlikelyEngineer

    UnlikelyEngineer Loaded Pockets

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    Woah there cowboy- I have a strong suspicion you're talking to me. This discussion was in the context of American law and constitutionalism. I agree that natural rights and personal responsibilities stand before the constitution, but this dude was asking about the interpretation of the constitution. Read the whole conversation before you act like I don't know what I'm talking about.

    Don't tell me to be quiet, don't straw man me, and don't tell me I'm unfit to voice my opinion. It may have been unintentional but I feel immensely disrespected.

    Never before have I felt like this on EDCForums. I can have more respectful discussions with anti-gunners.
     
  18. 11C1P
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    11C1P Loaded Pockets

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    As I posted earlier the founding fathers were quite clear on what constituted the militia. The people. Now you can not have it both ways and say that in the 1st, 4th, 10th amendments "the people" refers to individual citizens, but in the 2nd "the people" now refers to the national guard which was created about 130 years AFTER the constitution. Furthermore one of the interpretations could also lead one to think that wording would be to think about it like this: "Because a well regulated militia is required to maintain a free country, the individual people should have the right to keep and bear arms so as to keep the government in fear of the people, and not the people in fear of their government."
     
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  19. 11C1P
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    11C1P Loaded Pockets

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    Yes, if you tell me I can only carry my gun concealed and not in the open, or vice versa, that is an infringement upon that right. I just can't wrap my head around how that is confusing.
     
  20. 11C1P
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    11C1P Loaded Pockets

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