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"Cocked and locked" hesitation

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by kyguylal, Jan 26, 2016.

  1. kyguylal

    kyguylal Loaded Pockets

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    Hello everyone. I apologize is this has come up before, I tried a search.

    I have been carrying a .38spl J-frame for the past couple months, but I have found myself being lazy and not carrying at times, mainly because of the uncomfortableness of the cylinder poking into my side. For this reason, as much as I loved the revolver, I went to the store today to find a new gun.

    After the trade in value was determined, the store owner worked with me to come up with a good deal on a used Sig p238.

    I have never carried a single action handgun before and it is a bit intimidating. I have always had the long, double action trigger pull to lessen my chances of Glocking myself. Is carrying "cocked and locked" something which other people were hesitant with at first? Or is there any other method I should try using?
     
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  2. Cobra 6 Actual

    Cobra 6 Actual Loaded Pockets

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    It's a bit of a changeover from a revolver to a semiautomatic. But, bear in mind the same basic rules apply:

    1. Don't point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot.

    2. Don't put your finger inside the trigger guard unless you plan to shoot imminently.

    3. Don't squeeze the trigger unless you mean to.

    4. Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice.

    Practice at a range will help you to develop the proper motor memory. I've been shooting since I was a kid, so easily 60 years of it, including in combat and for decades as a LEO (including many years with Glocks). I've used hundreds of different weapons, but my advice is simple: if you remember the basics you'll do just fine.

    EDIT: Just remember that the most effective safety is your brain.
     
    Last edited by Cobra 6 Actual, Jan 27, 2016
  3. sol92258

    sol92258 Loaded Pockets

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    Some people carry with a round in the chamber, some carry without, so you have to chamber a round when/if you have to draw.
    Benefits - won't accidentally shoot yourself if the trigger does somehow get pressed
    Detriments - longer time until ready to shoot (not that it takes long to pull the slide, but milliseconds count in an emergency), and one less round carried

    Once my license arrives, I'll probably carry without a round in the chamber at first, until I get comfortable with the carry and confident the trigger hasn't had any near presses.

    There's also a product I saw on amazon that goes between the back of the trigger and the grip, to prevent the trigger depressing until you pop it out, I'll have to look up name, can't recall, but I might give that a go, looks pretty easy to just pop out while drawing
     
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  4. Eagle Scout
    • In Omnia Paratus

    Eagle Scout Loaded Pockets

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    I carry the p238 with one in the chamber. You're trading the long trigger pull for moving the safety down with the inside edge of your thumb.

    The DeSantis R7 is a great holster that will protect that trigger.

    I carry at 1 o'clock appendix and don't think twice about it.
     
  5. kensington

    kensington Loaded Pockets

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    Safety basics, training and a good holster, meaning one which protects the trigger and has good retention. With those qualities present the likelihood of a negligent discharge is greatly reduced without making your firearm too 'safe' to use as a self defense weapon.

    I carry hot 22+hrs a day
     
  6. moostapha

    moostapha Loaded Pockets

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    Dry fire. Dry fire. Dry fire.

    A lot.

    If you're not comfortable, you're more likely to make a mistake.

    I carried a p938 C1 for a while and never had a problem. Now, I carry an m&p aiwb C0....after around a thousand dry draws and hundreds of live draw practice at the range. And more every time I go.

    It is possible to do it safely, you just have to train yourself to be perfect. Which, in this regard, is attainable with training and vigilance.

    sent from a device with a keyboard that hates me
     
  7. les snyder

    les snyder Loaded Pockets

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    I shot a 1911 for USPSA competition for about 25 years... the loudest noise in the world is the first time in error click off the safety while the pistol is still in the holster... I would honestly evaluate your perception of threat... is the chance of a negligent discharge worth the time it takes to charge the pistol... if you thumb :censored: the hammer on an empty chamber, it takes a whole lot less effort to actually charge the pistol... a Jewish friend commented this was standard manual of arms for the Israeli IDF because of the vast number of types of hand guns in the early days...and the danger cocked and locked posed to the civilian population... good luck... if you choose to carry cocked and locked, dry fire until your muscle memory insures the safety is never taken off until the pistol is in presentation position

    I carry off body in a bag that does not have a dedicated holster that covers the trigger of my G17... I do not carry it with one in the chamber... but I have a very low perception of threat... I'm just kindly old Mr Snyder, an old, overweight, retired school teacher (with a 3 digit USPSA Life membership number)... YMMV
     
  8. reppans

    reppans Loaded Pockets

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    I'm comfortable with cocked and locked, and half-cocked striker semis at 4 o'clock, but since I started AIWB carry at 1 o'clock, I'm only comfortable with chambered guns/revolvers which I can verify hammer down.
     
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  9. Trespasser

    Trespasser Loaded Pockets

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    I don't have nearly the experience of some of the other gentleman that have already posted. But I have been carrying for about 10 years with a CCP, and longer without.. Alaska doesn't require a CCP. I have several hand guns that I carry including my SA 1911. I carried cocked and locked for awhile. One day I read of an article by a man that had a well broken in holster that inadvertently release his safety and then folded into the trigger guard and depressed the trigger and discharging hi weapon when he sat down in his car.

    I wasn't to worried about this happening to me as I have a kydex hybrid holster so there is little to no chance of it folding into the trigger guard. Then one day I came home and reached to unholster my pistol to put it in my bedside table and realized the safety had been taken off at some point during the day. I noticed this happened from time to time with certain combinations of clothing. Light jacket and jeans. Loose shirts. Apparently either my arm brushing up against it or my clothing was taking the safety off.

    Anyway as a result of the article and this issues I had, I changed how I carry. I still carry one in the chamber but I leave the hammer down on my SA and DA automatic pistols. I train the same way with both. As others mentioned I thumb the hammer as part of the draw. I don't foresee a scenario where having to thumb the hammer as I bring my pistol up will decrease my chance of survival. At least not in my current environment.
     
  10. masiaka

    masiaka Loaded Pockets

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    kyguylal, I think you should read the Bearing Arms page on empty chamber carry.

    I spent a lot of time learning about guns and concealed carry before I made the decision to get a concealed carry license. A big part of that was watching CCTV footage of robberies, home invasions, muggings, and the like. Most of what I've seen was at arm length, a lot of it involved the concealed carrier using the off hand to protect themselves while drawing the gun, and all of it involved an assailant surprising their victim. I can count on one hand the number of videos I've seen where a concealed carrier or police officer could've racked the slide of the pistol after realizing they were under attack and all of them were home invasions where the victim was fortunate enough to be in a different room.

    I've also seen photos of what can happen when a finger slips while lowering the hammer on a live round. I don't usually recommend it unless the pistol features a decocker. Your P238 has multiple safeties (manual thumb safety, firing pin block, hammer safety interceptor notch, and disconnector) in addition to the wet safety between your ears. Use a quality holster, follow the rules of firearm handling, keep your weapon in working order, and train often. You won't have a problem with carrying cocked and locked if you do your part.
     
    Last edited by masiaka, Jan 27, 2016
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  11. Brevard13

    Brevard13 Loaded Pockets

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    It's a required kind of taste. Some people don't mind cocked and locked, then again some people do. Two of the biggest keys to carrying cocked and locked is making sure the safety is engaged, and getting a good quality holster.

    With the safety every few days I will do a dry check to make sure the safety is functioning like it should. I would rather have the safety malfunction on a dry run when doing a check then one when carrying.

    With the holster. Some people will say leather over kydex...yada yada. My advice is keep a good eye on your holster. Visually inspecting for any wear or defects. If the kydex is cracked or chipped, or the leather is worn or stretched out it is better to retire the holster and buy a new one.

    I think the biggest thing I ever heard with cocked and locked were the old 1911s that would discharge when dropped.
     
  12. 0dBm

    0dBm Loaded Pockets

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    • You made a poor choice in exchanging the J-Frame for the SA Sig P238 just because of the discomfort of the cylinder. Carrying the P238 in cocked and locked mode limits the carry method. If you were "lazy" to carry the revolver, you may invariably become reluctant to carry the pistol because of your lack of familiarity with Condition 1 (cocked & locked). It is NOT for the novice.
    • Return to using a revolver and one with a concealed hammer such as the S&W Model 640, 642, 442, or 638.
    • Find a holster that doesn't poke your flesh.
    • Practice weekly with the revolver until you are absolutely competent with it in the application you chose.
    • Acknowledge that the store owner did you an injustice by talking you into purchasing the P938.
    • If you walked into that store with the intent that you were going to trade for the P938, someone misled you into buying a niche product with a usefulness that has been eclipsed by .380 caliber products such those made by Ruger, Kahr, Seecamp, S&W, etc.
    • The Sig P238 is essentially a copy of the Colt Mustang. I carried that pistol round in chamber-hammer down in a Mika Pocket holster for years over three decades ago because there were few others in the same category. There are many more to chose from today.
     
  13. chaosmagnet
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    chaosmagnet Loaded Pockets

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    Train. Train. Train. And train some more.

    Practice, both live and dry fire.

    If there's a league where you can compete locally, this will help you with the mechanics of the drawstroke, manipulating your firearm (particularly with reloads and the thumb safety) and keeping your trigger finger properly indexed until you are ready to fire.

    Whatever holster you select make sure it fully covers the trigger guard, fully covers and protects the thumb safety, and allows for safe one-handed reholstering.

    Until you are comfortable carrying your gun safely with a round in the chamber, I would urge you to not carry it.
     
  14. Matt Shepard

    Matt Shepard Loaded Pockets

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    I'll echo what some others have said. Train, train, train with it. Become familiar with the 1911 battery of arms and get a quality holster. After some practice, both dry firing and at the range, you should feel much more comfortable about carrying in that condition.

    If you don't, that's a nice piece and you can trade in to something else.

    Congrats on the new pistol btw!
     
  15. Trespasser

    Trespasser Loaded Pockets

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    Just one other comment about my previous post. My 1911 has an ambidextrous safety. This is what caused the issue with my weapon. The safety on the right side of the pistol is exposed with nearly all inside the waistband holsters. My options were buy one with a thumb break (fully covers both sides of the pistol), go to a single sided safety (not an option for me) or change the way I carry. If I replaced all of my holsters for thumb break holsters, I would still need to train to break the tab and draw. I chose to train to thumb the hammer on drawing.

    I know some P238's have the ambi-safety option but most do not. Whether this option is important to you or not can make all the difference in holster selection. That is something you will have to evaluate.
     
  16. GQP

    GQP Loaded Pockets

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    Just need 3 things.

    1. Understand the basic safety rules of firearms
    2. Select a quailty holster. It can help with your confidence if you know the trigger can't be pulled and firearm will not easily shift within the holster during normal body motion.
    3. Now give yourself time for the anxiety to fade.
     
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  17. NelsonIII

    NelsonIII Loaded Pockets

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    Kydex trigger cover? When you draw it snaps off the trigger guard and you're ready for action.

    Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2
     
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  18. chaosmagnet
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    chaosmagnet Loaded Pockets

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    In general I'm not a fan of these, as I don't think they hold the firearm securely in place, and it makes reholstering a slow, two-handed process (not that I advocate or teach any "speed-reholstering" technique). Also, I don't think these are appropriate for a single-action handgun, because the thumb safety isn't protected.
     
  19. Longbow_06

    Longbow_06 Banned

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    I'm 99.9 % certain that the story you're refering to concerned a Glock, and a worn leather holster with the lip folded in. Right down to it being in a car, seated.
    Not a cocked and locked pistol with a thumb safety.

    The thing with carrying with one in the chamber is, you're either comfortable with it, or not.
    I've always carried with one in the chamber. But that's me. Others are not comfortable with it. That's life.
     
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  20. Longbow_06

    Longbow_06 Banned

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    I was sitting on the sofa one day, wearing a 1911 with an ambi safety, when the dog decided to lay on me... Click.
    No more ambi safeties for me :D