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Cane was no good.

Discussion in 'Personal Security Devices & Self-Defense' started by jackknife, Jan 12, 2010.

  1. jackknife

    jackknife Loaded Pockets

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    I love canes/walking sticks. I've made no bones about it in past posts, and consider a knife a poor third rate weapon at best for self defense.

    Yesterday morning I changed my mind.

    I got up early to get my oil changed in my car by a buddy who has his own shop. Supposed to get there abut 9:30ish, so I left the house early so I'd have time to go by Panera Bread for a bagal and coffee. No probelmo.

    I go in and get my breakfast and go sit down by a little table at the front window, just have taken my first bite of a nice everthing bagal with cream cheese, when the kid comes up to me. I'd seen her with her mother in back of me in line, but gave them no thought. Little blond haired girl about 10ish. She looks at me and yells 'Moooove!"

    I'm taken a bit aback, so I look at her and ask "I beg your pardon?"

    The mother comes up with a tray of stuff and tells me she's sorry, but they always sit at that table because it's by a window and her daughter likes to look out while they eat. She's nice about it, but no appology or exuse me. Just the explaination and she stands there expecting me to move. I finnish chewing the bite of bagal and tell her that I'M sorry, but I'm sitting here at present and eating MY breakfast, and maybe this would be a good time for her overindulged offspring to learn some manners.

    She gets huffy with me telling me since we're all supposed to be grownups here, what would it be such a big deal for me to just move to another table. I sit there and look at her, not even believing what I'm hearing. This spoiled yuppy female offspring of a dog is demanding I move to accomodate her spoiled brat of a daughter. I of course refuse and tell her to just go away.

    The little girl tells her dear mommy to make me move, but the mommy tells her she can't, and will have to have daddy handle this. I'm on my second mouthful of bagal, and I catch this. She sits down at another table and they start eating, and mommy breaks out her cell phone and makes a call. Talks quietly for a moment, smiles and hangs up.

    Now I'm 69 years old this month, and I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I gather she's called 'daddy' whoever that is, and she's sitting there with this cheshire cat smile that makes me a bit mad. I didn't have long to wait.

    I knew it was daddy when he pulled into the parking lot. Had to be. Huge shiney black Ford Expedtion with jacked up suspension, big macho tires that will never see off pavement use in suburban Maryland. Big black steel grill guard and light guards, roof bar with half a dozen off road lights mounted. Pulls right up in the fire lane outside the front door and parks illeagally, and a big guy gets out.

    No, that's not really right. A big guy would be a double for Attila the hun. This guy looks like the real Conan The Barbarian like Arnold wish he was. At least 6' 4", and close to 300 pounds if he was a pound. Stands there in a warm up outfit and peels off the jacket so he's showing off the bulging biceps and deltoids. I admit at this point I should have just run for the door at the opposite end of the eatery, but with a bum wheel under me I don't run so good. I look at my cane, and I realize it's a joke in this one instance. I'm all of 5' 9" and 160 pounds, and if I try to use a cane on this guy, he's gonna stick it where the sun never shines, before he beats me to death. As he comes in the front door with that mussel bound arms out to the sides strut, I take out my Opinel, and hold it in my hand down by my plate semi-out of sight.

    At this point I'm going a gut instinct here. This guy is coming like he means a good rough up business, and I'm not going to play that game. Like I said, not really thinking abut it, just going on gut level guessing second by second.

    He see's his wifey and spoiled brat of a kid and goes over to them. Kid yells and points at me "Thats the man who wouldn't move daddy!" Daddy the barbarian looks at his wife and she tells him I insulted them in addition to not moving out of thier way, and he starts in my direction with that strut.

    By this time people are staring, and there's an audiance, but mussles the brainless dosen't seen to notice or care as he starts towards me and actually says loud enough for witnesses to later tell police, "You're in for a good --- kicking now you grey bearded old ----!"

    I admit I'm scared. Like I said, this guy is a huge gym body builder type, and I just know with my cane I stand no chance at all. I open my Opinel and hold it close to my right side as I stand up, wondering if I can hurt him enough to stop him before he kills me. Then a weird thing happens.

    He stops dead in his tracks.

    He's looking at the knife with kind a waryness. Not scared, but wary, and he stays out of range of me. He tries giving me a hard stare, but I'm staying where I am in the corner by my table and the wall. Right then I liked a corner. Then he says the most stupid and insane thing I ever heard a grown man say. He tells me to "Put that knife down and fight like a man!"

    I stare at him in amazement. Me; kind of skinny 160 pound 5 foot 9 guy, him massive 6' 4 or so 275 to 300 pound guy, and he's talking fair fight after telling me I'm gonna get a --- kickiing?

    I just want to eat my bagal and go get my Toyota's oil changed, and now I'm in a stare off with this guy who looks like he can tear me in two like a phone book. I tried to reason with him. I tell him "What you think is going to happen here isn't. I'm not going to let you beat me up to prove to your wife and kid how tough you are. What is going to happen here is if you assault me, I'm going to spread your guts all over this floor. You'll get me, but you're going to die doing it."

    He still stares at me, and I can't tell if he's impressed at all with my little speach, and I see that he really doesn't know what to do. He doesn't want to back down, but he's not willing to risk the knife. Then I hear the police sirens coming closer and he backs off trying to look nonchalant, and he tells his wife he'd better go. Cops pull up in front, and he kind of tries to look casual sitting down by his wife and kid, I put the Opinel down on the table and step away from it. . The manager and some other people start telling the cops what happened and they take me aside and talk to me, while interviewing others. Takes about 45 minutes, but the police sort it out, while he's saying I pulled a knife on him and trying to turn it around. Didn't work, too many witnesses too close and saw and heard everything. Got even better when the cops check out my VA hospital ID and see I'm a 50% disabled vet. Cop looks at my knife and tells me to put it back in my pocket. Big guy askes why they let me get away with having a knife. By this time things are not going to good for daddy the barbarian, and while all this was going on, another cop outside puts a 250 dollar ticket on his truck for parking in a fire lane.

    Big guy goes on a yelling spree. Yells they can't ticket his truck, they can't let me go after I pulled a knife, this and that. Finally three of the biggest cops sort of suround him and one cop puts a finger in his face and yells back. Tells him not to tell him what they can't do, and has he ever heard of disparity of force in self defense, and how he'd been attempting to assault a disabled vetern, and then they cuff him and arrest him. Takes 4 cops to cuff him and they go to the floor doing it, but they did it. That's when one cop told him he's going to pay 250 dollars for the fire lane parking spot. Wifey and brat staring in shock, but quiet as mice. As they put him a cruiser and take him away, I finally get to finish my bagal. Cops tell me I'll be notified of the court date.

    Whole thing ended anti-climatic. Looking back on it, I know certain as the sun's gonna rise in the east tomarow morning, if i'd tried to defend myself with a stick, he'd have taken me apart. But when I came up with a knife, he stopped in his tracks. I don't know if 1. He was smarter than he looked, or 2. He'd seen somebody sliced up before and knew what a sharp knife could do to soft tissue. Certainly I used no excalliber, just a wood handle Opinel number 8. But he didn't like having to deal with it.

    I now know what they mean by a layered defense. I'm not going to make that mistake again, and discount a knife so quick. From now on I will carry a knife for just in case a cane won't work.

    But the one thing that has been going through my mind in the last 24 hours thinking about it, has been how the sight of a knife in my hand stopped this huge guy cold. The knife had a whole differnt effect than a walking stick/cane would have had. Big as he was, he didn't want any part of it.

    Something to think about.
     
  2. jprivott

    jprivott Empty Pockets

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    EPIC STORY. :woohoo:

    O_O I'd hate to see what a climax would have been :knuppel2:
     
    Tyrolee likes this.
  3. jag-engr
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    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
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    jackknife,

    First of all, I'm very relieved that every thing turned out OK for one of my favorite posters. I'm glad the police got there when they did and that they didn't freak out over the idea of a knife. I suppose it probably helped that it was an Opinel. That whole scenario is absurd. What a bizarre sense of entitlement!

    Second, you have brought up a scenario where blunt impact may not be effective: disparity of force. I think you could have whailed on that guy for a while before he felt it unless you could get a good whack in to the back of the skull. I'm younger, a little heavier, and probably quicker on my feet (no offense intended), but I don't know that I could have done that well with a cane against him, either.

    I suppose the knife has an advantage over blunt impact against a significantly stronger, but still relatively rational individual. While your assailant could have shrugged off a couple blows with a cane, he would definitely feel the knife. His objective was to impress his wife and daughter with his skills as a bully. He was not willing to risk having any damage inflicted on him to do so.
     
  4. Urban Hermit

    Urban Hermit EDC Junkie!!!

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    I think it's programmed into us at a very young age to fear sharp pointy things. And we've all gotten a good cut from a sharp blade at least once in our lives. Usually superficial, but even that hurts, we don't want to know what actually getting stabbed or slashed feels like and the smarter of us will usually back down to the sight of a sharp blade.

    M
     
  5. TECENG
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    TECENG Loaded Pockets

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    Wow, very enlightening story. Thanks for posting.
     
  6. Dizos

    Dizos Loaded Pockets

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    I'm glad it turned out well. I can't fathom that family's behavior. Good that they got taken down a couple notches, hopefully the daughter learned something.
     
  7. Dirty Bob

    Dirty Bob Loaded Pockets

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    Wow.

    What amazes me the most is the attitude of the mom: catering to the whims of a brat of a daughter and putting her whole family in jeopardy in her attempt to intimidate you into giving up a table at a breakfast place. I'm always surprised by people who go charging into trouble at the drop of a hat like that family did.

    In Texas, the big guy could have ended up dead with a bullet hole in him in a similar situation. I don't think you could find a more clear-cut case of disparity of force involving a male victim, plus he had you cornered.

    I don't know if you ever read any of the stuff by Harold Jenks and Harold Brown -- two ex-cons who wrote some books for Paladin Press back in the 1980s -- but they wrote that big men can use a club, while smaller men are better off with a knife. I didn't understand that until your example. Had you gone with the cane, I think he would have taken it away from you and used it on you. I'm 22 years younger than yourself, and I doubt I could have done much better with a stick. With a huge opponent, you have to do damage in a hurry, and he has more capacity to soak up punishment than you or I do, although taking out a knee will bring anyone down, regardless of size.

    I'm really glad that you had a layered defense, and that Conan the Roid-barian saw the good sense of not charging a knife.

    Have you looked at Mercop's Inverted Edge method? I like the approach better than other approaches to close-quarter knife defense. There's a teaser video that shows it pretty well at: http://www.mercop.com/docs/video4.htm.

    Have you considered moving to a state where you could have had .45 as a third tool in your toolbox? I think we have a more polite society down here in the South, and it's shirtsleeve weather outside today. ;)

    In any case, jackknife, I'm really glad that you kept your cool and came out of that situation unscathed, and that the officers responding were sensible in evaluating the situation. It goes to show us that the most innocent setting can take an unexpected turn.

    Best wishes,
    Dirty Bob
     
  8. shrap

    shrap Loaded Pockets

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    I heard this somewhere (I think it's from Bram Frank of Common Sense Self Defense Street Combat), but there's one simple truth about knives that do not apply to canes, sticks, etc:

    Knives cut flesh.

    You can't block a knife attack very well without getting cut. No one wins knife fights, no one trains knife fights. But lots of people take martial arts, get in bar fights, etc. that don't involve getting cut, so they might be pretty confident that they can take a punch.

    But they're sure as hell not going to take a stab wound.
     
  9. stormtracker

    stormtracker Loaded Pockets

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    Great Story OP. People amaze me sometimes. How can someone do this to a 70 year old man with a cane? He got the beat down he deserved it sounds like by the LEO's

    I wanted to address something in the post above I think is important. As far as the cane or blunt object goes.

    I am not currently an LEO but I have been in Law Enforcement in the past. One of the things that I remember from training was the use of the PR24 ( fancy nightstick with a handle ).

    In fact the examples were used in training what to do if a 7' tall 300 lb football player says hes not going down town with you. The key was control of the individual. You want to start with the shins of the person you are massaging and then work your way up until you gain compliance.

    As a civilian your not trying to gain compliance other than to fend off an attack. So this information is limited in scope with that in mind.

    The thinking and philosophy behind this is once you hit someone in the head you have reached their pain threshold and all bets are off. You are now fighting someone who is fighting for their life as opposed to someone who just wants the beating to end.

    Hopefully that makes sense.


    I think you did well. You achieved your objective, finished your bagel and coffee and didn't have to give up your seat to unfriendly and rude demanding people.

    I was thinking though offering him a sip of your coffee and a nice massage with the cane would have been in order while he enjoyed your coffee. :lolhammer:

    :) Kind of reminds me of this GREAT movie clip - ENJOY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0uUHnV-IvU
     
  10. mpi

    mpi Loaded Pockets

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    in my leo career I've had to deal with such folks using a stick, i used to be very fond of our riot batons, myself. it can be done but often takes some work and skill. glad you didn't get hurt and the fool got what he deserved. glad, too, that you are OK!
     
  11. jehan60188

    jehan60188 Loaded Pockets

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    glad you're ok. the cane has the same effect as the knife, only to a different set of people. suburb :censored: sees a knife and gets soft. urban thug sees a cane, and finds someone with a shorter reach.

    and thank you for your service
     
  12. jag-engr
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    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
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    You make a good point. I wasn't necessarliy advising that someone try to hit someone in the head with a cane, especially with such a difference in height. I was primarily observing that the only way he was likely to accomplish anything with the cane was to achieve a KO by hitting him in the head.

    However, I can see the wisdom of your advice. I can definitely see pain compliance being more effective against a reasonably rational person than attempting to immobilize or incapacitate them.
     
  13. jag-engr
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    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
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    As I see it, only one of the three fools got what they deserved.

    The wife was every bit as guilty as her husband. I can't think of a viable legal reason to arrrest her, but still...

    The daughter is really just a product of her whack-job parents, but I think she may have learned a lesson from being picked up by social services after both her parents were arrested. Her parents apparently aren't going to teach her anything and she's going to end up like Nick Hogan someday.

    It's possible that the whole family learned lesson, but I somehow suspect that they probably didn't.
     
  14. LivingUpNorth

    LivingUpNorth Loaded Pockets

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    I'm glad you're okay! At first I was one of those who generally poo-poo a knife for self defense, but clearly it can be part of strong, layered defense.

    Most of all, I'm very impressed with your ability to keep a cool head. You mentioned several times that you were scared, but you were able to convince a much larger and stronger person to back off all without having to physically fight it out. I do hope that family figures it out before too long.
     
  15. crossroads

    crossroads Empty Pockets

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    I'm also very relieved to hear that you came out of this situation relatively okay. Makes my blood boil when I hear about people so pompous, arrogant and self-righteous that they will resort to assaulting others (let alone someone disabled and half their size) for the smallest and stupidest reasons.

    :iagree: Absolute idiots. "Oh no, can't have principles like respecting your elders obstructing what my lil princess wants!" :thumbsdown: :brickwall:

    Also, it's good to hear the humble Opinel can still make a charging psycho think twice. And for good reason too, them French carbon blades get razor sharp.
     
  16. 3fgburner

    3fgburner Loaded Pockets

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    Excellent post! I'll be remembering it for those times when I'm carrying a cane. I've got a slightly wider menu, as I also carry OC spray and, where legal, a gun. The lesson I'm drawing from your post is something along the lines of: If you've gotta fight, a cane may win it. If you may have to fight, a knife may prevent it.
     
  17. Chief-Yeah

    Chief-Yeah Loaded Pockets

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    :censored: man,that's some story,glad you're ok.Only thing I'd be worried about now is them looking for you to exact revenge.People like that just don't know any better.I'd get my coffee and bagel some place else for a while if I were you.
     
  18. jackknife

    jackknife Loaded Pockets

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    "Most of all, I'm very impressed with your ability to keep a cool head."


    don't be. I was scared to death of this guy, but I was trapped like a rat. I will freely admit than when I saw this guy get out of his truck, I would have run out the door on the other side of the resturaunt if I didn't have a bum leg under me. Running was just out of the quiestion, I would have just died tired. So the only thing I had to go on was pull out my Opinel and try to tell him that I know he'll get me, but that will mean getting in range of a very sharp knife that I intended to gut him with. At my age, I know I can't take a heavy duty beating without serious and maybe even fatal results. So all I have left as a cornered senior citizen, is to take him with me for the trip.

    I think he did understand, and that was why he kept his distance from me.
     
  19. ssmtbracer

    ssmtbracer EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    I think that is awesome. O0

    He got what was coming to him which does not always happen.
     
  20. LivingUpNorth

    LivingUpNorth Loaded Pockets

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    Either way, I'm glad you're still with us!