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BM Mini Grip Fan Club

Discussion in 'Knives' started by Tony Sal, Jan 30, 2015.

  1. EZDog

    EZDog EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    Maybe?
    I am not at all certain that BM advertises and promotes the "Free Fall" of an AXIS blade from the knife anyway,are you?
    I just do not know and it is too early to check for me Today.

    But this might be one of those hobbyist things that is only an issue as some of us have experiences the AXIS blades being so free from pivot pressure that they can drop from the frame on their own weight if the pivot is adjusted accordingly?

    I know that the Spyderco Manix is also thought be some to resemble an AXIS enough on the outside that many expect it to dothis too but I have spoken to the Spyderco Factory in person and they assure me that if a Manix is adjusted to factory spec. that it is not what they are designed to do.

    So I mention the possibility that BM might also not be within Spec. to operate the way that we have just come to expect and maybe prefer in the first place and it is conceivable that they do work as intended but the we prefer them to work differently?

    Otherwise,sure Moshe then I would have to agree with you.

    Here is a description of the lock by Doug Ritter and he mentions the free drop of the blade only in passing in a single line and not really out loud at that?

    http://www.dougritter.com/pop_up_axis_lock.htm

     
    #301 EZDog, Apr 22, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
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  2. BC42

    BC42 Loaded Pockets

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    Thanks but it wasn't really all that difficult to do and almost anyone that can turn a screwdriver could do this fairly easily.

    I would like to say first of all that the 3 knives I bought do work as intended from the manufacturer. When locked up, it's solid. There is no side to side or front to back play because the Axis lock holds the blade firmly in place. It's a great design. The tweaks I've done was to make a great product even better. I could've waited months or years for the brass washers to wear and break-in but it wasn't that hard to sand/polish them. These are mass produced knives and not customs so there will always be a degree of slop (tolerance). The main problem comes when tolerance stacking makes a product bad. I don't think this is the case with BM.

    The Japanese has always had a culture of perfection way before the US got involved so that might not be the best example.

    I like the 940 so much I just ordered another one (940-2) at a good price I couldn't pass up :).


    *Edit*
    I would like to clarify that the flaws I pointed out do not cause the knife to work (or not work) the way it should. Most people wouldn't even notice but since this is a hobbyist site, I thought you guys would appreciate the details I found. All 3 worked out of the box the way it should. The blade locks up very solid when open. There is nothing that "needs" to be done to any of them. The free dropping blade would come in time as the washers break in. Being the geek that I am, I wanted it to be better than the next guy's BM :p.
     
    #302 BC42, Apr 22, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
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  3. colin.p

    colin.p Loaded Pockets

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    I think you may be taking this too seriously. Most people who buy a knife are not knife sophisticates and are happy that the blade opens when it's supposed to and stays that way until they want it closed. If it's sharp, then that's great too.

    Free-falling blades would scare the bejeepers out of most of them. We are the only ones who worry that the blade has slight side to side play if we use brute force and a pair of vice grips to get it to move and if the grinds are not perfectly symmetrical down to the plank level.

    We can demonize Benchmade all we want and call down evil on them for the audacity of not having a perfect knife befitting the price point, but other manufacturers have the same issues. I think it was Sal Glesser himself said that Spyderco could build the same quality knives as CRK, BUT with CRK prices. Of the three Spyderco's I have, two of them have slight blade play but I really don't care, they are fine knives.

    edit: you may be right about the Chinese manufacturers though what with We, Kizer, Reate et al.
     
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  4. Moshe ben David

    Moshe ben David Loaded Pockets

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    @EZDog, @BC42, and @colin.p, and anyone else following this thread. Let me clarify my thoughts. Frankly I am neither focused on nor really care that much about the aspect of 'free-falling' blades for closing. I DO care about blades that are poorly centered, actions which are gritty -- and prove upon examination to be so due to 'debris' caught up in the pivots during manufacturing, and poor fit and finish in general. It is these sorts of things I see called out by purchasers in purchaser reviews most often, as well as called out by many reviewers most often; and BM appear to be particularly careless on the issues of blade centering and rough pivot actions particularly given the price points of their products.

    In terms of perfection relative to price point. My read on quality comes from my professional background. In QA we focus on any individual product's quality (a) as compared to the manufacturer's published specs & claims and (b) in terms of fitness for use, which has components of meeting spec as well as a certain amount of subjectivity on the part of the user. I simply don't see BM putting out a quality product when so many in the knife community so often comment on not merely adjusting the knives but actually taking them apart to clean the pivots and clean them! Sorry, but in my book this is a Quality Fail. All y'all are welcome to your own thoughts and opinions of course.

    Free-falling blades are a neat thing, but frankly even on knives that allow for it (e.g. Spyderco compression locks) I rarely close my knives that way. Admittedly this is a personal thing and YMMV.

    L'chaim!

    Moshe ben David
     
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  5. Moshe ben David

    Moshe ben David Loaded Pockets

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    "...If it's sharp, then that's great too."

    Really? I don't know if it was your intention, but that statement reads as if a knife received upon purchase that was sharpened properly is a 'bonus'?? What else would a tool that is expected to cut be????

    What am I missing here if anything?

    L'chaim!

    Moshe ben David
     
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  6. BC42

    BC42 Loaded Pockets

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    This is a great dialogue. :)

    I was a computer geek by trade but I've grown up working on cars and motorcycles and I usually double check any work done on my vehicles by my dealer or anyone else other than myself. I used to race enduros on my dirt bikes and also did a ton of track days with my car. I did all the maintenance myself. I have a garage full of tools from SnapOn as well as Harbor Freight so while I'm not afraid to spend money on quality tools, I know if it's a waste or not.

    I want to be perfectly clear that the 3 knives I got were not dirty or needed to be taken apart for proper function. The pivot pin and washers were lubed from the factory and the blades were all centered. The only real issue I had was with the full sized Grip where if I loosened the pivot screw and flicked the blade open really hard, the Axis lock would bind. It was more than just a bit of stiction and while it wasn't terrible, it bothered me. It wasn't worth sending back but it was worth spending some time to see if I could smooth it out a bit and I did. As with most mechanical devices with moving parts, it gets better with use as surfaces mate and get smoother so what I did wasn't necessary but I like to tinker and I was interested to see how the Axis lock worked.

    I don't think BM has a QC issue. Can it be better? Of course but the knives I got were fine out of the box. I just wanted them to be better. The Mini Grip is the smoothest of the three and the best size for EDC, IMO. The 940 is the easiest to flick open and close and it's really pretty with the black and blue G10 scales.

    BM just changed their policy 2 months ago so while they still replace stock clips free (2 per year), they charge $5 for deep carry clips if your knife didn't come with it. I'm more annoyed by this than the minor tweaking I did to the knives.
     
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  7. That Movie Guy

    That Movie Guy Loaded Pockets

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    My inner 12 year old read that as BM = Bowel Movement, not Benchmade.

    I Don't know why but I felt compelled to share my juvenile humour. It just seemed like a little levity was in order. ;)
     
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  8. Moshe ben David

    Moshe ben David Loaded Pockets

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    The term 'QC' has more or less fallen out of favor by the way. Outside of 'professional' circles, the general populace seem to think that (a) QC means to inspect and screen out defective product; and (b) that there is a department called 'Quality Control' who's job it is is to 'control' quality.

    In the circles I travel in, the emphasis is on Quality Assurance. Which is not an isolated department's 'job' but rather is the function of the organization as a whole. So, in this perspective, Design Engineering is tasked with (amongst other things) designing a product and specifying purchased/fabricated components that are both economical (in the framework of the marketplace in which the company plays), are suitable for economic quality production, and ultimately deliver product to the customer that is expected. Production, including Process Engineering, are responsible for not only producing the product but also designing processes which assure effective quality -- including monitoring process quality and continually improving to eliminate waste in the forms of defects, scrap, waste materials, rework, etc. etc. The whole point is to identify quality issues proactively and to take steps to reduce/eliminate problems before they reach the proverbial 'end of the line' or get out the door.

    The leading edge in quality is in the electronics industry; automotive have made huge strides as well. The leading edge companies measure defects at parts per billion. BM are not playing in this arena.

    If your situation was unique I'd not be harping on it so much. But it isn't. We knife knuts know well that BM have been having issues for quite a few years. There is simply not excuse for their pitiful performance. Complacency is tantamount to laziness and greed. We do not need to be supporting them on this.

    L'chaim!

    Moshe ben David
     
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  9. BC42

    BC42 Loaded Pockets

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    Either or. Both works for me :p
     
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  10. BC42

    BC42 Loaded Pockets

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    I think we are starting to split hairs but I think we understand each other.

    While I agree that BM could do better, it would most likely come at a cost. I think part of the reason is that it's almost completely made in the USA and it's already at premium pricing for most of their knives. The reason I will keep buying them is mainly for the Axis lock.

    To be honest, I've been looking at the Griptilian for years but it was hard to justify the cost. A few weeks ago, I was looking at knives again and came across Ganzo knives, a chinese company, that had great reviews. They have copies of the Axis lock and the knives were cheap enough that I ordered 2 to try out. With the purchases on my mind, I kinda felt guilty and I would never know if the original would be better or worse than the copies so I ordered the Grip and Mini Grip. I have to say that the Ganzo is a lot of knife for the money. I remember when 440c was great steel for knives. The omega springs on the Ganzo is ridiculously stiff so I took one out and it's much easier to use more comparable to the BM now. They're sitting in a knife case and will most likely be gifted to friends that don't know much about knives.

    BKC (better TMG? :p) still produces great products and materials are excellent. Tumbling the washers to get rid of the sharp edge from stamping would probably be the only change I would recommend. The up-side of having the sharp edges is that there's less resistance when the blade rotates on the pivot making the action feel better and the user experience with the knife as a whole is better.

    Side note: The link that EZDog posted about the Axis lock by Doug Ritter is spot on with my opinion as well. I always thought the liner locks were an accident waiting to happen and the biggest gripe of my Kershaw Cryo. My SOG Trident has a type of Axis lock that I really like and why I carried it when a bigger pocket knife wasn't really an issue but that is a big knife. Now, I have the Mini Grip to handle 90% of my EDC needs.
     
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  11. Moshe ben David

    Moshe ben David Loaded Pockets

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    I do not think we're splitting hairs on the subject of Quality.

    I know I get worked up on this subject. I've just seen too many 'iconic' US companies who finally had to leave the marketplace because they were no longer competitive. And that often meant jobs disappeared.

    I take DEEP exception to your comment about BM could do better but the cost would be too high. This is the historic refrain of US business. In truth though, a well designed process, using well designed parts and materials, is NOT more expensive. Higher costs come from excessive scrap, excessive rework, excessive inventories, and lost market opportunities.

    One of the well known 'gurus' of QA, a gentleman by the name of Phil Crosby, said it best in his book "Quality is Free". Why? Because you only spend money producing good product; those costs are covered when you price to the market. Waste and rework are never fully recovered costs. Brings to mind something that I experienced early in my career. My boss had sent me to a training session out of town. One of the speakers was in fact Phil Crosby. Crosby starts off by asking how many of us were QA Engineers, Supervisors, etc. Hands go up. He then asks how many of us supervise QC Inspectors. Same hands go up. He then asks how many of our inspectors, upon rejecting a production lot, can sign off on the reject ticket 'spec waived'. Most of the hands go up. He then tells up we can be 'heroes' when we return home by telling our bosses how to reduce staffing OH. How? By firing all the Design Engineers... since the Inspectors can override the specs, who needed the Engineers?

    That story is iconic of the troubles US industry was in during the 70's, the 80's, ... and in too many sectors still to this day!

    Look, I'm up in arms NOT because I hate BM nor because I want another company to fail. I'm up in arms because I've seen this story played out far too often in too many industries (cars, consumer electronics e.g., TV's, motorcycles, semiautomatic handguns -- think Colt and S&W vs Glock, etc etc etc). In our hobby, look at the loss of iconic knife manufacturers from days gone by.

    I see BM traveling the same path. And I do not like it.

    L'chaim!

    Moshe ben David
     
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  12. Tony Sal

    Tony Sal EDC Junkie!!!

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    I understand Moshe, your field of expertise! Tough watching business problems taking placein one of our favorite companies...
     
  13. Moshe ben David

    Moshe ben David Loaded Pockets

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    Thanks @Tony Sal!

    Just hope BM does take heed and does not become a 'fatality'!

    L'chaim!

    Moshe ben David
     
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  14. Tony Sal

    Tony Sal EDC Junkie!!!

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    I was hoping for some simple knife pics! But the above discussion is very interesting..
     
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  15. BC42

    BC42 Loaded Pockets

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    Here ya go :)

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Tony Sal

    Tony Sal EDC Junkie!!!

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    Mini my current fave, blue is rather cool, never thought of that color....
     
  17. BC42

    BC42 Loaded Pockets

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    I bought my nephew a black mini so I wanted a different color and the blue caught my eye.

    I'm outta control. Last month I got a Bailout and last week I got a Bugout. The Bailout is a first production and is perfect. The Bugout has the same issue my Grip had. The Axis lock sticks if I flick the blade really hard. I haven't taken it apart yet but I'll see how it breaks in.
    [​IMG]

    I also picked up a Spyderco (Para3 S110V) just to see what the fuss is about but I still don't get it. While I was at it, I got a Microtech UTX-85 S/E.
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Totaled108

    Totaled108 Empty Pockets

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    What pretty knives.

    Here’s my workhorse and only Benchmade. I’ve had it for around a decade now and use it nearly everyday at work, cutting boxes and straps, as well as avocados and anything else that needs cutting.

    I’ve also lost it at a movie theatre and thankfully the cleanup crew was honest and handed it over when I was able to describe it in detail, when I returned a while after leaving the theatre. I had to mail it to myself at an airport when I had forgotten I had it on me when going through security. Thank goodness for the mailing ($$) at PDX at the security line if you really don’t want to let your sharp stuff get taken from you.

    Benchmade has sharpened it a half dozen times and I have a few more times. Living near Oregon City for years made this as easy as a short detour. They offered to replace the clip and screws every time. But I opt to keep the clip original.

    Never any issues with the axis mechanism. It’s been dropped in the sand in the desert, has had motor oil all over it and I’ve even had to use it to eat with because I had forgotten a spork on a long hike.

    I like the thoroughly used tool look.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  19. Hagbard81

    Hagbard81 Loaded Pockets

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    Nice thread. To share something I'm just posting this old picture:[​IMG]

    Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
     
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  20. Moshe ben David

    Moshe ben David Loaded Pockets

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    To tell you the truth, in these pics the only obvious wear and tear I can discern is on the clip. No doubt, in person and as it is your personal knife, you can see the other signs of wear and tear. Hope you can continue to use it for many more years!

    L'chaim!

    Moshe ben David
     
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