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ar brand confusion

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by toddtheknifegeek, Sep 2, 2009.

  1. excistandreflect

    excistandreflect Empty Pockets

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    What Pat calls low to mid grade guns are in fact only separated from the BCM's, LMT's and Colts by MPI bolt testing. These can be less prone to failure under long durations of extended fire and are the most common failure in any AR. I hate to break it to you but the difference is very little and really only applies to full auto fire. Hell, I've seen people try to debate this with him, on other forums, and then get banned and then bashed by him, without reprisal. I don't know this forums polices of posting other forums but I'd be glad to PM you the name of the other forum so you can see for yourself what happens to those that disagree with him. That is the character I've come to mistrust. I will form my own opinions from my own experiences, the way he has, and the way you should. I'll take no other mans word on what weapon is best to defend my life with. I'll put it through the paces myself, not trust Pat Rogers and his Colt carrying neophytes.
    As for his dislike of Sig's I didn't say specifically Sig's, I said "like" the Sig 556. It has been reported from people in more than one of his classes about his dislike of piston type AR's and there being no need for them when his Colt will run fine all lubed up. That doesn't mean he is right.

    The two Bushmasters I own have been run through multiple courses, 3 gun events, and plinking. I've yet to replace anything on them. Nothing. I have fired over 40,000 rounds between the two and haven't cleaned one of them in the past 8,000 rounds. I'm just waiting for it to fail. I know of others with similar results with what you have called $500 AR's and Colts and Larue rifles. It doesn't require luck or a Pony stamped on the side of the receiver. The AR platform only has a couple weaknesses and if you prepare to cover those eventualities you'll be fine. And as I've stated before I've seen more Colts go down than any other manufacturer. That however doesn't mean all Colts are now complete junk and because I say so you should believe that and never buy one because of it.

    Form your own opinion.
     
  2. tpd223

    tpd223 Empty Pockets

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    "This could very well be true, although it is highly unlikely that an AR will breach fire which is the only way a semi AR can fire full auto minus a lightning link."

    Not true at all. I have seen folks try to trigger job an AR like one would do many other guns and end up with an AR that doubles or triples. The Bushmasters in question were department purchase carbines that were so poorly fitted they started doubling and tripling, or worse, right out of the box.

    Again, parts ain't parts. The folks building tier 1 guns do a far better job with QC and parts choices, generally, than the other companies.

    Running our patrol rifle program I see issues with Bushmasters regularly. Attending other classes I see issues with many other brand guns regularly. But one example would be the NRA Tactical Shooting Instructor course I attended a few years ago, taught in Sioux City by Mark Fricke. Three guys from a local SWAT team were running DPMS carbines in the course. During the second day all three guns went down due to broken bolts.

    I have seen a few QC issues with Colts, like canted front sight bases, but those guns still ran.

    Many of the folks reporting no issues with their guns just don't really shoot them. Slow fire from the bench at the 100 yard line puts little stress on the gun, and certainly doesn't tell you if the gun will work in a fight.

    As reported earlier, my work issued Bushampster worked fine through in-house training and the TDSA urban rifle course, but I had staked the carrier key properly, installed a Colt bolt, and reamed the chamber to 5.56 specs. Other than those issues the gun was fine, but one needs to know what they are looking at and be able to fix any problems found before these guns can be trusted for serious applications.
     
  3. TempestV

    TempestV Loaded Pockets

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    That's one of a couple things that can make a difference, and a flaw in the barrel or bolt could affect you any time you pull the trigger, not just in full auto.
    I've seen plenty of people that disagree with him, but nobody with the same level of experience that he has that disagrees with him. A sample set of 1 or 2 guns that run good just doesn't compare to the data file that he has on what makes guns puke. Pat does seem to forget that there those out there that just want to shoot tin cans in the back yard, and won't be putting the same stresses on the gun that he or his students do, but otherwise, I respect his opinion.


    Personally, I'll gladly hear the lessons that I can learn from people with a lot more experence than me, such as Pat Rogers. Sure, I could stick my fingers in my ears, buy lots of tacticool gear, and learn for myself what works and what doesn't, but in all likelyhood, I'd end up spending a lot of money on gear I'll never use because it doesn't work as well as the company would have me beleve. I'd rather listen to the people with expernece, and use that as a stepping stone for greater knowledge.

    Which is why he says he is happy with his 416's and M6's and would be willing to count on them.
    Good for you. I've heard lots of similar stories as well. I've also heard and seen the flip side as well, both with cheap guns and good guns. It's just that bad stories with good guns and good stories with cheap guns are more rare than the other way around.

    Frankly, from what I have seen of pricing, the difference between a DPMS or Bushmaster and a LMT, BCM, or CCMG is not that great, and is in many cases the same, so why would you go with the gun that has earned a bad reputation?
     
  4. excistandreflect

    excistandreflect Empty Pockets

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    What you just described is breach firing. In an AR it occurs when the hammer follows the carrier back down without a sear to delay it. It's common when the trigger springs are put in wrong. Again it can happen. I've heard rumor of bad QC at Bushmaster as far as final assembly goes, that just confirms it happens. It doesn't mean every single Bushmaster is now a time bomb.

    Again you are wrong. There are a few companies that make them to different specs. All testing standards are the same. There isn't any tiers between makers accept in slight perceived differences. IE. MPI testing, final finish (teflon, parkerizing, ion bond) and large hole, small hole lower parts.

    This is the most common thing to happen to bring AR's to a halt. Not just DPMS or Bushmasters. Particle testing even fails. I've seen MPI tested bolts break.



    Here you are right. There is a big difference between target shooting, training, and combat. However a gun functions exactly the same in any of those situations. They don't magically turn into turds if they don't have a pony stamped on the side when your training versus slow fire shooting. Your logic is flawed. As is your assumption that my rifles spent there time on a bench. Other than siting them in, they've spent there lives at 3 gun events getting used.

    Are you sure your barrel had a 5.56 chamber. Bushmaster makes both 223 and 5.56 chamber guns. I've never had to return any thing to them so I can't speak to their customer service, but maybe the rifles should have been returned. There are a lot of departments that have issued the Bushmasters and haven't had the same issues. So to claim that all Bushmasters or DPMS built guns are prone to failure or have missed sized chambers is inaccurate.
     
  5. hovaczech

    hovaczech Loaded Pockets

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    I can't speak with the same surity and knowledge of some of the previous posters but I really like my Rock River Arms AR. Spent a fair amount of time at the range with no issues other then ammunition caused problems. Primer from a Russian round caused a jam in the trigger group. Other then that its been a fine weapon. I am sure ARs are about like everything else on this forum, what is gold for one is another's junk. Alot of personal preference comes into play.
     
  6. excistandreflect

    excistandreflect Empty Pockets

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    Very true. I've seen MPI tested bolts break, does that mean now that BCM, LMT, and Colt's bolts will now disintegrate when I pull the trigger? No it doesn't. That's my point.

    I have meet people with more practical experience than him that strongly dislike him. I formed my opinion of him solely from his actions and postings on another forum. I've never met the man, but I have seen what his nut huggers and neophytes will do to upstanding members of other online communities when they disagree with him.

    No where did I say to not take into account the experience and opinions of others. Just to make your own. You went ahead and quoted words only from Pat Rogers that backed his opinions and your assumptions. There are a lot of other amazing gun writers and trainers you could have used also, but didn't. I have personally benefited from his articles and have gleaned wonderful info about new products as he gets to T&E a lot of really cool kit, but his opinions won't affect mine. Some may be the same, but I'll take more than just one man's experience, opinions, and followers into account before I make my own opinion as should you. There is no great knowledge in following any one, except yourself.

    You mean CMMG. With you doing that twice and saying that a US senator from Kansas (Pat Roberts) was Pat Rogers, I'm going to assume you've never attended any of his classes or meet the man? The thing is that if you would actually research either DPMS or Bushmaster all you'll come across is hear say like has already been posted in this thread or people bashing them because they've seen brand A fail were brand B doesn't so now all brand A is junk. If that were the case I'd be bashing Colts and saying they are the worst built rifles ever with shoddy QC because they have had bad barrel batches and canted front sights and broken bolts. A bunch of assumption does not make fact and I'm not saying what you know is completely wrong, just not completely right.
     
  7. TempestV

    TempestV Loaded Pockets

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    How many rounds had those guns fired, and at what rate? How does that compare to the guns that have had non-MPI bolts break? What percentage of MPI'd bolts fail vs non-MPI'd bolts under the same conditions? MPI helps companies to cull out bolts and barrels with flaws that may cause the gun to fail prematurely. Does it catch every single flaw? No. Does a bolt or barrel have to be flawed in order to fail? No. Does MPI testing reduce the rate of flawed parts being used? Yes. Is a part without flaws more likely to survive than a part with flaws? Yes. No matter how careful you are when building a gun, there will be some that slip through the gaps. However, some companies let more slip through the cracks than others. Saying that I've seen good guns go bad, by it's self, really means nothing.

    Like I said, I disagree with him when he seems to say that everybody must have a top tier gun, optics, gear, ect. I don't need a Noveske to punch paper a couple times a year. However, in every debate I have seen between him and anyone else over which AR is more reliable, he has data with a massive sample size, and the other guy has "I have a DPMS that hasn't broken" or "My friend's Colt crapped the bed the other day". Take that for what you will.

    The reason I quoted Pat Rogers was because of your claim that he wasn't a fan of anything but Colt. I wish I could find the quote where he lists the brands that he trusts and doesn't trust, but I can't seem to remember where I found that. Again, I don't agree with him on everything, such as how important reliability really is for plinkers and such, but his knowledge of which brands are most likely to TU under hard use is definitely worth reading.


    Sorry, I had just rolled out of bed when I typed that first message, I must not have been thinking clearly. My mistake.

    Sure, small sample sizes are about useless for comparison. However, If I buy 100 of brand A and 200 of brand B, and treat all 300 exactly the same, and 2 of the brand A and 50 of the brand B go TU, then that is a pretty good reason to believe that brand A is better than brand B.

    Also, when I can get a better gun for the same money as a lower end gun, why on earth would I choose the lower end gun?
     
  8. KMajors

    KMajors Loaded Pockets

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    I have owned a Rock River AR for about 5 years.

    Been to range a handful of times with no failures.

    Beautiful rifle, 2 stage trigger, and very accurate. A lot more accurate than I am.
    I am a firm believer that it is more about the "Indian than the Arrow".

    My 2 cents.
     
  9. burns

    burns Loaded Pockets

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    Stag builds are great for the $ and so is CMMG. If you go with CMMG you can get a mid-length. If I had it to do over I would probably go mid-length 16" upper.

    Get good stuff if you want to own a good gun, have fun and not lose your bankroll. Guys will direct you to Noveske, LaRue etc., but the money starts pouring fast when you start looking at the ultra-premium stuff. I buy good quality stuff, not ultra premium, and mine have been super reliable. It is VERY easy to get carried away and end up with more rifle than you need.

    There is a deal floatin' on the web right now where you can get an Aero Precision stripped lower receiver and a DPMS lower parts kit for like $117 total. AMAZING deal. You could buy that, add a Magpul stock w/ buffer assembly, Stag or CMMG upper assembly, and you'd be good to go with a great rifle that won't break the bank. You would end up at under $800 plus shipping and transfer fee for the stripped lower. Just an idea.
     
  10. excistandreflect

    excistandreflect Empty Pockets

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    That was my point exactly. You and I are on the same wavelength now. The time I have had an MPI'd bolt break was within 300 rounds. That being said I have had a non-MPI'd bolt break within a similar round count. The difference really is negligible. The biggest difference is MPI testing costs more per bolt and barrel, with a truly negligible difference.

    So when a gun with a bad reputation fails it is then an admonition of why to not buy them at all and they are junk? How is that not a double standard, and that is my point.

    I have been shooting and building AR15's for the past decade and a half and have logged hundreds of hours in classes and competitions. I'm a NRA certified CCW instructor have helped teach people how to defend themselves and have read just about everything Pat has had published, although I don't really agree with all his views. But none of that makes a difference as I'm just some guy that hasn't had his Bushmaster fail.
    Here is a quote from him recently off the firing line when asked what gear he uses:

    "..... Your question is interesting, but falls into the apples and oranges catagory.I don't have one gun. Not all are set up exactly the same way. Technology evolves, and what i use evolves with time.I also T&E a fair amount of gear- things change according to my schedule and priorities.Having said that...I use Colts or LMT only...."

    And that has been his response for that very question for a long time. I can't fault him for his gear choice and say he should have a Model1Sales gun. He has learned what works for him from his experiences. As you should. He has always said Colt is the god among AR manufacturers. And you'll never find a quote from him saying, "I'd take my LMT or BCM over a Colt any day!" He has and will always be an advocate for the superiority of Colt rifles. He may give a nod to other makers like LMT but he has always recommend Colt. Which isn't my problem with him. As I own a 6920 and it is a nice rifle. I don't have as many rounds through it as my other 3 gun setup Bushmasters, and that doesn't take away from either maker.

    Being that in my area a Colt or LMT is $600 or more than a Bushmaster it's really easy to consider your options. An analogy for an analogy makes no sense. You have no solid proof that your analogy is even accurate as if you look at over all break downs with the Stoner platform that are truly a failure of the parts the company with the most product on the consumer market and in the hands of soldiers will have the highest failure rate. If you look at one manufacturers failure rate of 100 new rifles vs. another, the failures of both will be close if not go one way or the other for either maker. It will really be negligible. I have owned rifles from most of the makers at one point or another, and I can attest to there being major finish differences in the appearance of the outside of the rifles , but truly small differences in the parts themselves. We can argue this back and forth for a week, when you and I already know that there are only a few companies that forge the parts for AR's and beyond minor specs and QC the rifles are all very similar. I don't understand why we are still going back and forth. Beyond my opinion that MPI testing has the same odds of producing bad parts we seem to generally agree.
     
  11. TempestV

    TempestV Loaded Pockets

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    Clearly we are not on the same wavelength. MPIing the bolt and barrel lets you check for defects that you would otherwise not be able to see. If you are careful to check for flaws and eliminate the parts that have them, then you reduce the chance that your final product will fail at a bad time. Granted, you probably won't catch every single flaw, and it's entirely possible for a part without a flaw to fail, particularly if it has been used hard, but the point is that your final product is less likely to fail when you eliminate the parts most likely to fail.


    The reliability of a single gun (doesn't matter if it's high end or low end) Doesn't tell you much about an entire model line or brand. It could easily be an exception. If on the other hand, out of a large sample of guns, a decent percentage run poorly, then that might tell you something about the rest of the guns that came off the same line. The same is true if all but a very few run superbly.
    I'm not saying that you aren't knowledgeable. I'm just describing what I have seen as far as people arguing with Pat online.

    That's interesting, as I have recently read a quote from him where he describes the brands that he is willing to trust, which include LWRC, BCM, HK, and probalby a few others that I'm forgetting, besides of course, Colt and LMT. As I recall, he describes S&W as being on the edge. In his stable of loan out guns, he has BCM, Colt, LMT, LWRC, and an HK 416. As you can see from my post above, he is quite impressed with the BCM guns, one of which has probably topped 30k rounds at this point. Of course that isn't an exhaustive list of every good company, it's just a list of the companies that he has tried so far and has been impressed with.

    The easiest way to compare different grades of guns is to look at what happens when they are put under similar stresses. Firearms instructors get a chance to see a wide variety of guns subjected to the same conditions, and get a good idea of what works and what doesn't. When a number of these instructors make it very clear that in their opinion, when a gun is subjected to a lot of stress, the high grade guns are less likely to crap out than the low tier guns, I listen.
    Also, I don't follow what you say about the failure rate depends upon the number of guns. If a company has sold 10k guns or 1 million guns, the larger number doesn't mean that a higher percentage of the guns failed. Sure, the company that sold 1 million guns might have had more guns fail, but then, the probably also had more that ran fine.
    Also, if I can buy a CMMG or piece together an LMT or BCM gun off Bravo Company for the same price I am seeing locally for Bushmasters and DPMS guns, then why would I want to buy the gun with a worse reputation for reliability?
    Buy the way, MPI testing doesn't produce any parts. MPI testing finds parts that are more likely to fail quickly, so that the company knows not to use them to build rifles out of. I'm still a little curious why you think that MPI testing isn't important? If you knew a part was damaged, would you use it on your AR?
     
  12. excistandreflect

    excistandreflect Empty Pockets

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    I've posted that same exact thing now twice. You don't seem to read well. I think you just want to argue and get the last word. This is no longer a discussion. MPI testing does not guarantee anything except that the product has been MPI tested. Period. MPI testing is so subjective as you can test for any particular particle you so desire. Also if the foundry that forged the parts does MPI testing it is very common for the end manufacturer to destroy a part to MPI test it and find that the original testing wasn't done to their spec, as the foundry checked for one particle and they another. Read this just the first paragraph about MPI testing.

    Every manufacturer has runs that do exactly what you have posted, one no more than the other. Colt and Bushmaster have been criticized over the past 10 years of having shoddy QC, unreliable guns, sub par milling standards, and so on. The majority of the owners of these guns have had zero issues. You seem to think of one as lower quality or as having an unreliable reputation when in fact all of them have been accused of the same things at one time or another, and all of them have fixed issues and moved on. This is where you come up with another diatribe that says the same thing I did to perpetuate an argument over something you have only read about on the internet. You have no first hand experience.

    Again, it makes no difference. Pat Rogers is and will always be a Colt man. He says it at every one of his classes and repeats it in online forums. He has given the nod to a few other companies, but has always advocated for Colt. I again have repeated this twice now and you have not read it. It does not make my statement any less true. Colt has always been the first gun he says he shoots, recommends, or loans out.

    I am a firearms instructor, and you don't seem to listen to me? In fact you're now arguing with me and claiming you know for certain that something is true based not on your experience but that of someone you have never meet. Sarcasm doesn't equate well to typed word sorry if that doesn't come off as sarcastic.

    Colt has manufactured the M16 and the AR15 since 1963. Since it's inception it has been the most criticized battle rifle for being unreliable and having catastrophic failures. The number of Colts that have broken in comparison to any other company is staggering. That is because they have produced more of them than anyone else. That is all. It isn't a comparison between companies it is a statement of fact about one in particular. My point is that it doesn't mean anything, and that it is all subjective to samples taken.
    Any one can piece together an LMT or BCM upper and put it on a CMT lower for $800. Find one place that sells a complete LMT or Colt for under $1400 that you can buy locally. Your comparing apples to oranges. Good god man. You are just trying to find the pettiest arguments to hold onto and bring about irrelevant points that say nothing about the actual reliability of what you call low end guns. That is because you don't have any basis for your opinions.

    Really? You have no idea what you're talking about. MPI testing does not detect broken parts. It is used to detect specific particles, using magnetism, in the metal used to produce the parts.

    I'm not going to clutter this thread any more with petty arguments, feel free to post back and get the last word as I believe that is all you really want. It still won't make your opinions fact or your arguments any less wandering and vague.
     
  13. grayman

    grayman Loaded Pockets

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    Not sure if you or anyone else cares but a Colt 6920 is as close as you can get to a civilian mil-spec M4. Out of all the brands listed in this thread, it meets the most requirements.
     
  14. hovaczech

    hovaczech Loaded Pockets

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    :iagree:

    I used to work with a guy who had all these high dollar guns and couldn't hit his butt with both hands! :lolhammer:

    He fancied himself a marksman. One time we went to the range and He had a nice bushmaster with a Luepold scope and was using a buddies NHM-91(thumbhole AK) and he had a hard time keeping it on paper at 100 yards. Open sight, I manage to shoot the one inch dowel his target was mounted on in half (i'm an okay shot but this was probably a fluke!). Talk about PO'd. Ah good times. Did I mention he was my boss?
     
  15. TempestV

    TempestV Loaded Pockets

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    I'm not sure if you realize, but MPI testing doesn't test for particles at all, it uses magnetic particles to find defects in the part. Based off of your above quote, you have no idea what you are talking about. Here is a link to help you understand: http://www.engineersedge.com/inspection/marnetic_particle.htm
    It is not destructive testing. There are different methods used in order to find different kinds of problems, but either way, it catches likely problems before they are installed on a gun. According to you, it makes no difference because it is still possible for the part to fail, but I'll play the odds that an MPI'd part is less likely to fail because of a pre-existing flaw.

    My point about the firearms instructors is that the major training facilities will see more AR's put to the test than almost anyone, and they will be from a variety of different manufacturers, unlike, for instance, the military, where everything is Colt or FN. Since they will see more guns, and for that matter more guns go down than I will ever see, I will listen to their experiences about which guns go down, over my own, in comparison, limited experiences or other people's impressions based on their similarly limited experience. I know from reading reports written by many of these major instructors that the higher grade guns tend to be less likely to go down when subjected to high levels of use in a short time.

    As far as Pat Rogers, even if he is a Colt man, my point is that he has found a number of different brands other than Colt to work reliably that he is willing to trust.

    As far as price, I know recently I've seen a number of Colts for sale online for $1100 or less. I was surprised as well. That's still not as cheap as a bushmaster or DPMS or such, but it's not that much more. Also, like I said, there are a number of options that will get you a high quality gun for the same cost as a bushmaster. You might have to buy the upper, lower, and bolt carrier separately, but personally, I'd rather piece together a high quality gun than buy a lower end gun for the same cost. Sure, it might be somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison, but for someone looking to buy an AR, it's still a very valid comparison.
     
  16. excistandreflect

    excistandreflect Empty Pockets

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    Actually you got me there. I didn't realize it was magnaflux. That actually makes a hell of a lot more sense than what I was thinking was required and what is actually accomplished by the testing. I work with cobalt, aluminum and titanium tooling and we use a method of particle testing that involves destroying a specific number of pieces from an order and testing for ferrous metal particles with chemicals and magnetism. We have always called it "Magnetic Particle Testing". I've learned something today, thank you.

    The rest of your post needs no other response that I haven't already given you.