1. Are you a current member with account or password issues?

    Please visit following page for more information

    Dismiss Notice

Anyone not keep a round in the chamber?

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by Valpo Hawkeye, Nov 14, 2008.

  1. CyBuzz

    CyBuzz Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    0
    I evaluated my last purchase with the grip safety winning out. I was looking at the M&P 40 Sub Compact and the XD40SC. When I carried my XD40 Service, I looked at it as an extra safety when re holstering that the grip safety was there. I just re holstered by pushing the back of the slide and not the grip safety.

    The XD40SC won out for the extra safety. I dont have to think about flipping a safety, my grip does it automagically.

    I also didn't like the trigger on the M&P (though I hear they are really quite nice). I hear they shoot very well also. There were numerous other factors that went into my selection of the XD over the M&P.

    j
     
  2. hannism

    hannism Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2008
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    1
    If I carry my Glock 19, I do not have a round in the chamber. I'm using a 3.5# trigger, and I haven't switched to the NY trigger. The way I train, I slide the rack as I draw. I've also thought about putting a safety round in the chamber. I can't remember the name of it to save my life, but that bullet goes for 24.95.

    It's designed so if someone disarms you, and pulls the trigger, then it releases three legs that make the weapon inoperable.

    You have to rack the slide to chamber a real round.

    When I carry my snubnose .38, I have all five rounds of Golden Sabers loaded. I prefer carrying a snubnose, just because it's so much more concealable.
     
  3. Dirty Bob

    Dirty Bob Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    467
    Likes Received:
    15
    I wouldn't trust something like this. What if you drop the gun and it "trips" the device? What if you're surprised by a threat, draw, and pull the trigger before you work the slide?

    I won't carry a gun that I don't trust with a loaded chamber, but I'd much rather have an empty chamber than the gadget you describe.

    If you're worried about a disarm and having the gun pointed at you, try a S&W or other DA auto that lets you engage the safety on the fully-loaded gun. A grabber would pull the trigger and get nothing, giving you a moment to run or take other actions.

    BTW, anyone who can take a gun away from you is still dangerous with an inoperable gun in their hands. For starters, they could start hitting you with it.

    Stay safe,
    Dirty Bob
     
  4. peacefuljeffrey

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,895
    Likes Received:
    10
    It's important to note that those states that require retreat, to my knowledge, stipulate that retreat is required if it can be safely accomplished.

    It's difficult to imagine a scenario in which you are threatened with deadly force and can somehow be clairvoyant enough to know the following:
    - there is a clear avenue of retreat available to you
    - your assailant will not put bullets into you from behind as you retreat
    - your assailant will not give chase
    - your assailant will not be a faster runner than you
    - you will not stumble, trip, or fall as you attempt to retreat

    Given that I would not be able to know any of those things for certain, if I used deadly force in a state that did not do away with the "duty to retreat," I would march right into court and say, "No reasonable person could possibly 'know' that retreat could be safely accomplished; and since I could not guarantee myself a safe retreat, I did not attempt to do so."
     
  5. peacefuljeffrey

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,895
    Likes Received:
    10
    Full agreement, here.

    I have to wonder, since all I have is the season 1 set of DVDs, how the experts on "Personal Defense TV" would address this subject.
    I simply cannot imagine Massad Ayoob (my idol ;D) ever agreeing that it's ok to carry with an empty chamber. That man describes (and acts out) so many defensive scenarios, and many of them involve the use of the off hand for things other than racking the slide. You have to assume that something else might occupy that hand, and that you'd :censored: well better have the ability to fire that gun as soon as it's out of the holster.

    Now, if those here who advocate empty-chamber carry "for safety" would watch that show, I ask: IF the experts condemned empty-chamber carry like I think they would, would that make any difference to your decision?
     
  6. archer

    archer Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2008
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is an excellent thread and i find myself returning to it to read up on the opinions of some of the forumites. Living in Israel and being an ex active duty paratrooper, range officer and instructor i have had my share of "gun time". And while i am sure that there are many ex whatever more experienced than me, still summing up my experience and knowledge i can say that in my humble opinion there is no cut and dried, "one way only" to carry a gun. Living in a country like Israel there is always but always the danger and possibility of a terrorist attack literally just around the corner. I do not usually carry my Glock 19
    with a round in the chamber, but i have on occasion chambered a round and reholseterd when i thought
    it could give me an edge if i thought there was a possible danger, that based on knowledge, experience
    and maybe a littel gut instincs. On two occasions i have had to draw my "civilian" gun, on one occasion i have had to return fire after i drew and racked the slide. For some reason some forumites believe that racking the slide becomes an impossible chore if you have to engage an assailant with your gun. You will always do what you have trained and prepared for, and if you trained to do a rack of the slide, you will do it allmost instinctively. As far as the legal system goes, every human being has the God given right to defend him/herself but the burden of proof lays on you the defender to prove it was justifyable.
    Special anti terrorist units go into action condition one and usually the pistol is a secondary weapon.
    police officers never carry condition one though the threat here is mostly terrorist oriented as apposed to criminal oriented, the kind of carry has never been an issue, to my knowledge anyway.
    Summing it up i can say IMHO that it is a matter of personal choice based on experience, education
    and perception. I still believe while danger levels are not constant in our democratic, mostly danger free, free societies
    (thank God) we should adjust our alert levels to suit the threat level.
    taking worst case scenarios into consideration like having to shoot while wounded or holding your kids or a shopping bag in one hand is legitimate. Being wounded by gunshot almost always incapacitates you,
    so continuing to fight after is rarely an option.
    Thanks for your time.
     
  7. nbmaine2007

    nbmaine2007 Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,792
    Likes Received:
    33
    O0
     
  8. litework

    litework Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2008
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    252
    Why do you need to put an empty case in the chamber? :censored: an empty Glock and take a look at the position of the trigger at the end of the day. If the trigger's all the way to the rear, you pulled the trigger sometime during the day.
     
  9. peacefuljeffrey

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,895
    Likes Received:
    10
    I'm still baffled by the tale of Israeli cops carrying with empty chambers... :(
     
  10. archer

    archer Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2008
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    0
    i guessed they haven't grasped the idea of repeat fire guns yet.
     
  11. randyha

    randyha Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Has anyone here not ever carried a wheel gun? Would you go to the extend of taking the round out of two chambers - the current chamber and next chamber that advances when the trigger is pulled? When I compare all of these issues in a semi-auto to carring a revolver it seems that the fear is in the complexity of the tool, or the lack of confidence in the operator. If one can't can't carry with a round in the chamber, it seems that some adjustment needs to be made either in the tool, or the operator.

    I recognize there is a wide range of opinions on this sort of thing,even between the experts like Ayoob and others. Evan Marshall, for example, has said that his life has been saved twice in actual gun fights because he had one or more backup guns accessible by his weak hand while his strong hand was busy or could not access the strong side weapon. One would hate to be in such a situation and need to cycle a round into the chamber with the weak hand only.

    Good discussion here. Thanks.
     
  12. nbmaine2007

    nbmaine2007 Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,792
    Likes Received:
    33
    I think this is where some of the disagreements on this subject come into play. People often assume that someone who doesn't carry with one in the chamber does so because they don't trust their weapon or themselves. Some may, but others may go through a decision making process like I mentioned.
    "I know that chances of me needing to draw my gun are minimal...the chances of me needing to fire it, almost nothing...and a case where the extra time to rack the slide would cost me, next to non-existent. So when you do that math in your head, the decision to have one in the chamber or not is an easy one to make IMHO. "

    So the chances any of us regular citizens (non-LEO, etc) needing to draw/fire when we couldn't rack the slide, are like lottery odds. Of course some people like to envision that scenario when they are going to draw and fire immediately, but that's movie stuff. Not likely to happen. In the end, to each their own.
     
  13. randyha

    randyha Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks. I really like to hear other folks thinking on these things and continually analyse and reevaluate my own protocol.
     
  14. PsychoFish

    PsychoFish Empty Pockets

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    1
    I just recently applied for my CCW, but have been carrying open (in vehicles to from work only) for some time now. I keep one in the chamber on all of my defense guns. I work in a jail facility with a lot of messed up people. A lot of them have straight up told me they would like to see me dead on the streets. So for me, I do not want to have to do anything more than draw and fire if given the chance to defend myself.
     
  15. archer

    archer Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2008
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    0
    I just cant keep away from this thread.
    So who in your mind is the absolute authority on chambered/unchambered condition
    Carry?
    Lets start with some statistics, first of all he/she would have to be a survivor of about four or five gunfights or engagements. why four or five? Because in my experience it takes the normal human psychosis a at least a number of exposures to learn to adjust to this kind of threat level when the adrenalin and fear kicks in to really grasp what is going on and its full dynamics.
    Unless of course you have some kind of psychotic tendencies, but then nothing really
    Fazes you. By the way, lets state for record that the gunfightees can come from a military/civilian scenario for those who have done some soldiering but have not been in a civilian gunfight which to be fair are very rare for the average gun totting Joe.
    Lets continue with our statistics, one such engagement would be with an unchambered round and you had to draw and rack the slide to return fire, you survived, great.
    On the second engagement you have a chambered round and all you had to do
    Was draw and return fire, you survived again.
    On the third engagement you are holding your baby boy/girl in you hands or maybe a shopping bag (I personally never thought that a shopping bag was of enough importance that I would have to fight one handed, but for the sake of argument)
    And you have to draw one handed (you have a round chambered) and return fire and you do this without putting the baby down or getting them out harms way and that is contrary to any and all survival instincs and common sense, you have survived again.
    Neither you are very lucky (or very unlucky) or extremely skillfull and cool enough that to draw a point of reference after the fact and really analyse the differences.
    Moving on, on the fourth engagement you get caught in some gunfire and one unlucky civilian is seriously wounded with real serious bleeding, you go to the rescue to give some medical assistance, you have time to rack the slide as your first measure because
    It would take you at least a few seconds to figure out who is against who, anyway

    your hands get really bloody trying to stop the bleeding, then your are engaged and you return fire with very bloody and slippery hands.
    On the fifth engagement, you would have to survive the last four to get here,
    Out of nowhere you get shot!
    A 5.56 slug in center of mass, lets say the stomach.
    Why a 5.56 ? Because to be a complete surprise it would have to be from some kind of distance hence the rifle and not pistol (I would do it this way), why the center of mass? Because on a non scoped rifle I would not risk a head shot , why stomach shot?
    Because for the sake of this little exercise I would not aim for the chest which could very well be a kill shot and after all we want the exercisee to survive to be able to react with his/her pistol for the sake of our little study.
    Now, with a gun shot wound to the stomach, after all, you cant really choose where you get shot, you just do, now I would like to see if the chambered/unchambered argument has any real value.
    Here is my point, if anybody here knows anybody, somebody serious, not some smoke blowing Joe who claims to be a professor or guru of gunfights but someone who has survived a number of something even slightly similar to the
    Scenarios mentioned above and tell me that taking into account all the experience and knowledge gained from such experiences, and it is cut and dried that carrying a hot weapon all the time is justifiable and the absolute edge between living and dying, I would be completely convinced and bow to the knowledge of this man.
    He would also have to convince me that he was not a very lucky human being.
    This is just an exercise and was not meant to offend any forumites as I respect the opinions and thoughts of others.
     
  16. peacefuljeffrey

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,895
    Likes Received:
    10
    I think that while it may be true that needing to draw/fire at all may be "lottery odds," but once that situation is upon you, it may very well be one of needing to draw and fire with one hand. I think you are incorrect in calling it "movie stuff." Once the chips are down and it's shoot or die, it could easily be in a very strained situation in which you can't take the time, or can't spare the hand, to cycle the slide.

    To attempt to say with some sort of authority--or if not authority, with such dismissiveness--that we're astronomically unlikely to need to fire a chambered round in a hurry, is presumptuous.
     
  17. peacefuljeffrey

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,895
    Likes Received:
    10

    I don't quite understand why it seems that you would require a person to have survived four or five gunfight scenarios--not by luck--before you will believe him and give him credence when he says that one really ought to carry a defensive handgun "hot."

    Why don't you require the same of a guy who says you should leave the chamber empty? I'd say that if even ONE of the scenarios that Mr. Empty gets into prevents him from chambering the round he needs to fire to save his life, he's a done turkey. Given the idea that the holstered gun with a chambered round is not going to go off by itself in any modern gun, I just don't understand what the allure of carrying an empty chamber is. This goes directly to the old saying, "It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it." The "it" in this case is "a round ready to fire."

    If we remove the safety concern (that of "the dangerous round waiting in the chamber"), then what compelling need is served by leaving the gun in a condition where we will definitely need a free hand to load it? It seems to me that if we end up needing the gun, we are tempting fate when we say that the odds are against needing to be able to fire it direct from the holster with one hand. I am not willing to risk that.
     
  18. archer

    archer Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2008
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the end it is a matter of personal choice taking into consideration a number of factors i.e.
    threat level, level of proficiency (perceived or real), self confidence in your level of proficiency, knowledge and accountability of legal ramifications and maybe level of individual paranoia.
    There is no end to how much you can be prepared, you can also walk around 24/7 with a hot gun in your hand and really, really be prepared, but in a civilian, law abiding society it would be a bit extreme.
    As a matter of surviving four or five gun fights, it was just an exercise to try and mentally create an ideal model of authority on gun carry conditions in a "civilian" reality, is there such a thing?
    And i do believe the safety factor is a factor no matter how well you are trained, because when it comes to gunplay :censored: happens and a chambered round in a civilian gun in a civilian scenario IMO can be in some instances very much a disadvantage.
    Except in some extreme cases i personally never felt a constant, round the clock threat level that warranted carrying a hot gun round the clock and i allways take into consideration other seemingly far fetched factors which could influence my judgement and cause me to be a little bit careless.
    In the end i will rely on my training to make up for the disadvantage of being surprised while not carrying "hot", just like every soldier has to do in a military scenario.
    It is a cost/benefit judgement call in a civilian reality, and like i said before you have to be accountable.
     
  19. nbmaine2007

    nbmaine2007 Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,792
    Likes Received:
    33
    I'm as pro gun as you can be. I have several, I have my CCW, but I also like to think of myself as a realist. And I know I'm more likely to get struck by lightening than to need to draw and fire one handed. So I just don't worry about such miniscule odds.

    And I personally think that anyone who makes these odds out to be a bigger deal do so because it's "cooler" to carry one in the chamber than it is to manage real risks in our lives like weight/cholesterol/etc. properly, which is such a higher risk for 99% of us. And that's fine. I carry half the EDC stuff I do because it's cool. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that, and part of what makes it great to live in America.

    So as I've said before, at the end of the day carry however you want. It's your 2nd amendment right. But you shouldn't try to convince someone who doesn't carry, or who carried unchambered, that there is a realistic risk to them. It just isn't there, and statistics have proven that. Just do what you do, and let them do the same.
     
  20. TKC

    TKC Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2006
    Messages:
    5,490
    Likes Received:
    1,354
    I don't keep a round chambered because it is "cooler", but because that is how I was TRAINED to carry it that way.