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Anyone not keep a round in the chamber?

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by Valpo Hawkeye, Nov 14, 2008.

  1. moostapha

    moostapha Loaded Pockets

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    by learning, then buying. If your beginner class doesn't at least have rental guns, it's a :censored: class. Or they should find friends.

    yes, it is absurd. No one is suggesting in that. You don't carry until you're ready.

    I there's a happy medium in there somewhere. Personally, I think its found in competition. Find a USPSA or IDPA match you can go to. Show up early and explain that you're new. People will help. If not, find a different club because yours is full of dickweeds.

    the next thing to do is lock it up until you know how to use it safely. The decision to carry a weapon should not be made out of fear. The decision to learn how to take care of yourself is another matter.

    then they shouldn't handle it unsupervised.

    obviously not. That would be reckless.

    A gun in the wrong hands is dangerous. Just because I believe everyone should have that right does not mean I think everyone should exercise it.

    There was an article posted by an anti a while ago about her month carrying concealed. Among other things, she thought it came from the store loaded and stopped a cop to unload it for her. As far as I remember, she never shot it. She left it in her purse when she forgot about it. She probably never bought a holster.

    This woman should not own a gun. She doesn't have the mentality. She proved that. My objection is with her opinion that I shouldn't be able to exercise mine just because she doesn't care to become competent.

    And based on some other of stinger's posts, I get it from him....if I were to use Mexican carry or put a gun under my pillow, I'd want it in C3 too. On my hip in a good holster....I see no reason not to trust the way it's been done for a hundred years.
     
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  2. Chimay

    Chimay Loaded Pockets

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    Moostapha, thanks for furthering my point. But you see no one contemplates new, newer, or inexperienced shooter before they spout the C1 is the only way to carry or store a gun. The appropriate way is different for each shooter and based on their skill. Ultimately is it recommended to end up C1? That seems to be the prevailing thought at this time, but the way I see it that is running. You got to learn the crawl, then walk etc. first.

    It seems the people here, except for Stinger that are doing C3 are newer shooters. I don't want them to feel pressured into doing C1 before they are ready. But that's what a lot of these C1 posts would be driving them towards. Particularly with the judgmental tones surrounding their decisions. Giving advice, training tips, or other ways forwarder great. And like you pointed out there's a lot of ways towards getting to the point that it is considered safe to get to C1. But C1 carries more risk to yourself and others than C3 does. And that is still being glossed over by most people. They won't even acknowledge that fact. No one is immune to a ND or AD. Hopefully they have considered the risks, but just don't want to talk about it here for whatever reason. This superman myth that a finger is the only thing that will ever make a gun go bang is very dangerous.

    Some people don't have the luxury of time, money and access to quality training and maybe they try to get what they can from the internet. Lets just keep in mind that potentially any one in the world could be reading this advice. Maybe even the woman that wrote the article,
     
    Last edited by Chimay, Sep 8, 2014
  3. RBid

    RBid Loaded Pockets

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    You repeatedly throw around "responsible gun owner" in connection with people who have NOT been responsible enough to get educated and proficient.

    A RESPONSIBLE gun owner takes the time to do both, and is able to safely and proficiently operate their firearm before carrying it, just as a responsible driver takes the time to learn safety and proficiency before driving alone on a freeway.


    re·spon·si·ble
    riˈspänsəbəl/
    adjective
    adjective: responsible
    having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone, as part of one's job or role.
    "the department responsible for education"
    synonyms: in charge of, in control of, at the helm of, accountable for, liable for
    "who is responsible for the prisons?"
    being the primary cause of something and so able to be blamed or credited for it.
    "the gene was responsible for a rare type of eye cancer"
    synonyms: accountable, answerable, to blame, guilty, culpable, blameworthy, at fault, in the wrong
    "if an error's been made, I'm the one who's responsible"


    If you don't carry it every day, it's not every day carry.
     
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  4. RBid

    RBid Loaded Pockets

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    Carrying a firearm at all is "running". Carrying in a "safer" condition to make up for a lack of familiarity and proficiency is strictly irresponsible.

    I challenge you to consider the reality of a non-proficient carrier carrying on an empty chamber in an SD situation. What does THAT draw and shoot look like? Imagine a new user drawing, clenching the trigger, and running the slide...


    If you don't carry it every day, it's not every day carry.
     
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  5. Chimay

    Chimay Loaded Pockets

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    RBif, no I'm not saying those people are responsible gun owners if they don't take the time to learn those things. I said many gun owners do not take the time to learn these things. They buy a gun, put it under the bed and they feel safer. Illusion I'd say, but its what a lot of people do. It is irresponsible for responsible gun owners with the training and experience that they rightly think everyone else should have to say that only way to carry a gun always is C1. See the difference? Until I point out irresponsible, or in experienced gun owners do we start seeing *well they shouldn't carry a gun C1", or they shouldn't own a gun at all. The C1 posts I would assume\hope are only addressing responsible gun owners, but instead they are addressing everyone who owns a gun or could own a gun responsible or not. See my point there??

    A C3 draw from an inexperienced shooter looks a lot better to me than a ND that kills someone. You won't stop an irresponsible person from owning or carrying a gun, just like you won't stop people from driving that are irresponsible. I'm not advocating that these people should carry or own guns at all, before we get more thing confused.

    All that is still being considered for the C1 debate is a SD situations that warrants a gun. For most people this is a never ever going to happen experience, but its the only experience that supports C1 so I guess that's the only experience that will get talked about.
     
    Last edited by Chimay, Sep 8, 2014
  6. RBid

    RBid Loaded Pockets

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    Responsible gun owners DO NOT carry before they are proficient. Period.

    Should they own firearms? By all means. That is a step along the way to proficiency. Having a firearm around to learn with can dramatically speed up the process.

    BUT...

    They have no business carrying at all until they are proficient.


    If you don't carry it every day, it's not every day carry.
     
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  7. Stonerman33
    • In Omnia Paratus

    Stonerman33 Loaded Pockets

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    C1, all the time. If it's not cocked, locked, and ready to rock, I might as well be carrying a rock in my holster.

    Seen too many instances where carrying on Empty could be a fatal mistake, and sometimes is.

    Call me irresponsible if so inclined, but I sleep fine at night.
     
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  8. Lou_G

    Lou_G Banned

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    I can't take anyone that would even consider using Internet Explorer at all seriously. OK, I'm just kidding.

    I'm just trying to understand what the whole meaning behind "CQB Ambush" is. If I'm being forced to use a pistol for defense, it is going to be CQB and likely an ambush, because I wouldn't knowingly walk into the situation. Maybe it is just the wording that I don't like.

    Yes. If you aren't safe in condition 1, you aren't safe enough to be carrying a gun for defense. You have some serious training and practice before you should carry for defense. If you're worried that an ND is likely, then you aren't competent with handling your firearm and/or it is not mechanically sound. Carrying in condition 3 to make up for a lack of discipline is like putting a kid with training wheels on his bike alone in the city. Sorry, not ready for the big leagues yet. Like I said before, this is just my opinion and ultimately you have to do what is right for you.

    No. I just don't understand the whole "CQB Ambush" thing like I said. It just seems to me that any gunfight is going to fall under those terms. Also, getting shot with a pistol, even multiple times, isn't likely to kill you in a second and a half. Again, maybe I just don't understand the point being made because I don't like or understand the terminology being used. It isn't like I'm going to draw and ready my gun before it all happens, you react after something bad has happened. If I knew something bad was going to happen before it started, I would try to avoid being in that situation.

    Only if you don't train and practice how to martially handle your firearm. NDs can happen to anyone, which is why we should be hyper-vigilant about what we are doing. Most NDs are stupid people doing stupid things. The most important rule of gun safety is that all guns are always loaded and are treated as such. Period. If people would get that through their heads and treat the gun that way, we wouldn't need the other rules because it is common sense. Most NDs I have heard of is because someone incorrectly made the decision to press the trigger. Others such as the police chief that caught his Glock on his jacket goes back to stupid people doing stupid things, as in not having the serious mindset on how to martially handle the firearm. Back to what I said about carrying in condition 1, if you're that lazy and lackadaisical in your firearm handling, put the gun back in the safe because you aren't ready to carry it for defense.

    The point is that these people aren't ready to carry a gun every day for defense. You need to train on how to properly handle and carry the gun. Then you must practice what you were trained over and over. You don't need to spend 10 grand, but you do need to invest some time and money. I don't advocate carrying a gun for defense before you are ready. What gives gun owners bad reps is incompetent people making mistakes.

    Again, these people are not competent and should not be carrying a gun for defense. If they run around with a gun and have an ND, that is because they are irresponsible. Good training and lots of dry practice are in order. Being incompetent and having a problem doesn't mean that I'm irresponsible for telling people how to properly carry a gun for defense. To put it another way, if Grasshopper can't snatch the pebble from my hand, he isn't ready for prime time.


    No, they don't. Obviously they were being irresponsible and made a mistake. None of us are immune, which is why hyper-vigilance of how you martially handle your firearm is paramount. The guys that think it can't happen to them are the ones we hear about. It can happen to anyone. All guns are always loaded. Never point the muzzle at something you aren't willing to destroy. Know your target and what is around/beyond it. And for the love of all that is good, keep your finger off of the trigger until your sights are on the target and you have made the decision to shoot.

    You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to understand this. Maybe I'm wrong and you do. Making excuses and using crutches for incompetent people doesn't solve the problem. The public school system in this country should be a testament to that.

    Yes, I'm coming across somewhat harsh. I wish we could talk in person to understand the tone is much friendlier. It is difficult to convey everything across this medium. I don't intend to be disrespectful to anyone with how I made my points. I'm not an eloquent speaker or writer, which is why I usually defer to others to get the point across. I only know how to be somewhat of a smart-alec.

    Maybe someone better than I am with words like T.H.Cone or FL Woods Bum could do a better job of conveying this. Or maybe I'm just wrong, it has happened before.
     
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  9. Chimay

    Chimay Loaded Pockets

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    Good luck stopping them. We don't get to pick who we drive next to, nor do we get to pick who owns or carries guns.

    People that many of us consider having no business owning a gun will own a gun. In many states, they will get a CCW and carry the gun. Or In other states they'll carry in their car, or at home as is their right without a CCW license. In some states you don't even need to take a class or show proficiency to get a CCW license at all. And in at least one state you don't need a CCW license at all. These are the states touted as great gun rights states. So it is entirely possible for someone to get a CCW license, buy a hand gun, buy a box of ammo. Strap on a holster (or skip it and shove it in their pants), load up the gun C1 and be out in public legally that same day. I'd rather them be carrying and keeping C3 if they are going to do that at all.

    So let's not pretend that only responsible and trained people carry guns. Let's not pretend that we're only addressing responsible and trained people. Let's not push the least safe option is the only option any one should consider ever. While I agree for trained and responsible shooters with proper equipment it is a safe way to carry 99% of the time, however accidents do happen and they are not always caused by the gun owners trigger finger.

    The only "safe" gun is an empty gun that has been verified by the handler, and we treat all guns like they are loaded. So when we are handed a gun, what do we do first? We check to see if its loaded and visually/manually confirm there is not a round chambered. Why? Because thats the safe practice. Because it is safer to handle the firearm when it is empty. Especially for new/inexperienced shooters. The topic for this thread is "Any one not keep a round in the chamber?", this would imply at any time. The discussion is trying to be driven to only "Does any one carry without a round in the chamber?", that is a little different question and the direction the thread is trying to go in.




    Nope, not going to call you irresponsible. If that is you feel comfortable with after considering your options (it's how I feel comfortable after considering the options), then it is the right and responsible choice for you.
     
  10. Mumbojumboo
    • GITD Manix 2XL Owner

    Mumbojumboo EDC Junkie!!!!!

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    This is so lame.
     
  11. Chimay

    Chimay Loaded Pockets

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    Lou_G no worries my friend. I know this is a passionate topic for many people and I'm grown up enough to not take things on the internet as disrespectful or personal. I enjoy a good discussion or even argument from time to time. I hope no one takes my comments as disrespectful either.

    Usually I agree with you on IE :D , however with a Windows 8 tablet, no other browser is very user friendly when using touch only. Firefox unfortunately canceled their touch UI and as far as I know Chrome doesn't have any touch optimization in Windows. I wish they did, I like using chrome on my android tablet.

    I think what it comes down to as the primary difference that I am seeing (as what we're actually saying very very similar things, I'm even saying very similar things to RBid) is I would rather be telling people about all of the options, pros and cons of each, and have them decide for themselves what makes the most sense. Saying C1 or none is a distortion of the truth and takes away that decision making process for someone else. C1 is certainly the prevailing way and has its own set of pros and cons. The con is it requires an experienced shooter and carries a lower degree of safety against a ND/AD. I disagree that a less experienced shooter should not carry C3 at all. If a less experienced shooter is going to carry (I'd prefer that they didn't) then I would prefer them to carry C3. Again, we can't stop anyone, but I do think it is irresponsible to deliver ultimatums for others to follow demanding that the only way to carry period is C1 and if you don't like it don't carry is unrealistic at best. And here many will apparently disagree. That's fine.

    Unfortunately it is not outside the realm of possibility that a lurker or EDCF member would come along, read this thread, say yeah I want to go get a firearm and make it part of my EDC. Maybe they don't read every post all the way through, but they see everyone says I should only ever have or carry a gun C1, so that's what they go and do. None of us want that to happen. But many of us are not communicating that until challenged specifically about it. Even someone that has taken some classes, and has gone to the range I think it would be a good idea to carry C3 for a little while even if its just around the house. Again this thread is not just about carrying C1, its about ever keeping a gun empty. I think they should keep the gun C3 or C4 for quite a while too. And only move on other methods if they feel comfortable.

    For the sake of others reading this thread. I carried completely empty around the house when I first started carrying, I didn't carry in public (but I had been keeping a gun in my car for years C1, in MS it's legal). I'd try different things, try to see what would cause a AD or ND. After a while I determined with my pistols its fairly easy to avoid a ND/AD even without a safety or glock trigger when you are mindful and go through an established process each time you handle a firearm. Don't skip a step, don't take a short cut, follow the process. Have a process for each situation, practice it, drill it, train for it then use it each and every time until you find something better. Then practice, drill it, train it and use it. Here's a summary of what I do. I keep a thumb on the back of the hammer (or top of the hammer in the case of my P238, don't do this with a striker fire gun) and gun indexed while holstering with a full strong hand grip on the grip of the pistol. I index before I draw also with a full grip, index on the gun after the draw, and once I see the front sight to know where a bullet would go and the front sight is on target (depending on range and if I'm going for smallest groups possible or speed, maybe wait for the entire clear sight picture) then my trigger finger enters the guard. Then I start the long DA squeeze. It has taken thousands of rounds before I feel comfortable shooting at even 7 yards with a front sight picture only. So please don't go and try and do this while you are still getting familiar with how you handle/shoot firearms.

    That's not rocket science like others have said, but its something that takes a long time to get fully ingrained into someone.
     
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  12. RBid

    RBid Loaded Pockets

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    I do not believe in advising mechanical solutions to people problems. I believe, STRONGLY, that one of the most important pieces of advice that truly responsible gun owners can give to newer owners is to get familiar and get proficient. Failure to do these things prior to carrying is strictly irresponsible.


    If you don't carry it every day, it's not every day carry.
     
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  13. Chimay

    Chimay Loaded Pockets

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    Look at how much we agree! I love it.
     
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  14. Lou_G

    Lou_G Banned

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    I think I do better if I only try to talk about one small part of the issue at a time. So the "CQB Ambush" part is done with for now.

    The biggest issue I have with the C3 carry is that we are basically compromising with someone's lack of skill and safe handling. Rather than insisting everyone rise up to a minimum level, we are lowering the standard to them. I feel like we are just dropping to the lowest common denominator, hence my jab at the public school system.

    It seems to me that someone who isn't safe in condition 1, probably isn't the best candidate for armed carry. They are more likely to make other mistakes that will lead to an ND anyhow. I know first hand that someone with little skill, training and practice is not going to do well in a gunfight.

    The realist in me sees your side of it. We can't control what everyone else does. It's like a parent of a teenager saying, "I know you're going to go to parties and drink, and that's OK, because if I say no you'll do it anyhow. Just don't ever drive or ride with someone else who has been drinking." I just don't like preaching this message widespread, because it may be easier, but it isn't right in my mind. I support that everyone should do what works for them, but I can't encourage what is a bad choice in my eyes.

    If I were still A Very Bad Guy™ like I was 20 years ago, I would encourage everyone to carry in condition 3. I'm still alive thanks to other people thinking it is a good idea.

    Anyhow, good discussion and I think we all see both sides at this point. I think my take away from this is that I should promote condition 1 when asked, but not jump all over someone for trying condition 3. Explain my side and leave it up to them. Thanks.
     
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  15. moostapha

    moostapha Loaded Pockets

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    Go to a practical pistol match if you don't believe him. People are bloody slow.

    Sounds good. Along those lines, I carry C1 because I'm confident in my gun handling (because of training and competition) and want fewer steps between the decision to shoot and then act of shooting and because that's how I compete (on the vast majority of stages), so I'm used to flipping a safety off....not a 10lb DA pull or racking a slide.
     
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