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An Englishmans EDC

Discussion in 'Show us pics of your EDC!' started by durhamsurvivor, Feb 10, 2009.

  1. Safety1st

    Safety1st Loaded Pockets

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    I'm in Yorkshire. (Northern England)..

    Durham survivor... would you like to reply to any of the points in my post Sir ?

    Regards,
    Gary
     
  2. rhazkhal

    rhazkhal Loaded Pockets

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    Nice kit!!! O0 Gotta :smitten: those "ToolLogic"...
     
  3. phill

    phill Loaded Pockets

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    I think too many people read the wrong newspapers. Crime isnt nearly as bad as everyone believes, the trust in police isnt really any different than before and im not evens sure the quality of policing has been lowered.

    The problems come from the top - we dont have enough prison places so we cant punish criminals harshly enough, there is too much time spent doing paperwork than actual policing (but then again paperwork is important). When you hear of mismanaged cases you have the problems coming from the CPS and judges (and even the judges get a much harsher rep from what they deserve as the majority of them are really good).

    The problems in this country stem from newspapers like the Daily Fail and the politicians who try hard to appease them. Too many new ineffective laws and gimmick schemes have been created and too little time is spent talking to the real experts to find out what will work (and when the expert disagrees they are hung out to dry).

    But anyway, i think the cops have a hard job and they do it to the best of their ability for the most part. Also, to loop back into the origional point, i tend to agree carrying a double edged boot knife especially is a bad idea, its never being seen as a tool compared to any normal lock knife and overall you would do much better to carry a big D cell maglite or like others said a walking cane of some kind as a weapon - knives are rubbish weapons to defend oneself with.
     
  4. durhamsurvivor

    durhamsurvivor Empty Pockets

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  5. durhamsurvivor

    durhamsurvivor Empty Pockets

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    Must disagree there Crime has risen alarmingly since 1996 in the UK the Internation crime survey is clear on that, RECORDED crime is down because as reported in various media sources many people no longer have any faith in the police and dont bother contacting them..
    With regards to the officers themselves the interlectual quality of the average policeman is much higher than it was 15 or 30 years ago thats for sure. After Maggie gave them a serious of big pay rises the force attracted a better calibre of candidate. BUT there was a serious drawback ( I believe ) For example when I left the Army and was considering joining the Met Police I was told that I was two short at 5 ft 10 inches and told to try a regional force. The main forces had very high standards for the physical requirements of recruits. Today you see lads as short as 5 ft 4in , girls as short as 5ft 3 ins and weighing in at under 10 stones. That is a mistake they have no command presence accordingly they yoof on the street does not respect them or obey their orders, this leads all to often to the bobby having to resort to baton or calling for help, where as the older bobby of past year dominated the scene with his presence. Yes I know girl officers can and do reduce confrontational scenes quite well, often better than the lads. BUT when you have a brawl, street fight, rioting miners,football hooligans, race riots, political protests raging in the street the shortys are a liability. Can you remember the time when I think it was Abu Hamza the muslim hate preacher burst into a public meeting hosted by the home secretary John Read. The only uniform in the room was a bobby no taller than 5ft 5 and hamza just brush him aside and continued to shout abuse.
     
  6. BIG-TARGET

    BIG-TARGET Empty Pockets

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    Durhamsurvivor;

    WOW!!! nice EDC!! Ever consider getting a job as "Q" in the next James Bond?? :cool:
     
  7. phill

    phill Loaded Pockets

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    Im sorry, but i find it hard to take anyone seriously who refers to Tony Martin as a hero and the Menezes shooting as cold blooded murder.

    Tony Martin laid in wait with an illegal firearm and then shot the robbers including when they were outside his house running away for their lives and he shot them in the back. He lied repeatedly to police and is by far and away the worst example ever for people not being able to protect their homes. The fact is if he had a legal shotgun and if he had only shot them when in his house he wouldnt have seen a single day of prison time. Its a travesty of justice that his murder conviction was overturned by misplaced public support.

    Compare that to a guy who was shot as a terrorist suspect as he was about to board public transport. Now im not gonna defend the huge numbers of mistakes of that day but it was a sad case of operational error. If we expect the forces to keep us safe in times when the terrorists are british born and bred then we have to accept there will be mistakes. Frankly id rather have more mistakes like the Menezes shooting than what happened on 7/7.

    Also, to go on a bit further - there is no problem in law for people not being able to defend their homes. You can legally kill people in your home if they are a present danger to you. The only people convincted are the ones who go to far, be it shooting teenagers in the back when they run away or the case where someone tied a burglar to a chair and tortured him. Whilst i dont think our system is perfect its not too bad if rough around the edges - the problem is that when people try and poke holes in it they have to pick extreme examples like Tony Martin that do not hold up to logical analysis of the facts of the case. Im sure i can find many cases of burglars being killed by homeowners and nothing at all happening to the homeowner - they were defending themselves where as Tony Martin was out to murder those burglars - there is a huge world of difference and im pretty sure even in America which is much more liberal in its balance of force he would have faced the legal system for his actions.
     
  8. Safety1st

    Safety1st Loaded Pockets

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    durhamsurvivor. Some incidents you might find interesting;

    Householder/other victims not prosecuted after they had injured their assailant/burglar.

    Robbery at a newsagent's. One of the two robbers died after being stabbed by the newsagent. The CPS did not prosecute the newsagent but prosecuted the surviving robber who was jailed for six years (Greater Manchester);

    A householder returned home to find a burglar in his home. There was a struggle during which the burglar hit his head on the driveway and later died. No prosecution of householder who was clearly acting in self-defence (Derbyshire);

    Armed robbers threatened a pub landlord and barmaid with extreme violence. The barmaid escaped, fetched her employer's shotgun and shot at least one of the intruders. Barmaid not prosecuted (Hertfordshire);

    Two burglars entered a house armed with a knife and threatened a woman. Her husband overcame one of the burglars and stabbed him. The burglar died. There was no prosecution of the householder but the remaining burglar was convicted (Lincolnshire);

    A middle aged female took a baseball bat off a burglar and hit him over the head, fracturing his skull. The burglar made a complaint but the CPS refused to prosecute (Lancashire).


    There have only been 11 cases in the last 15 years where people have been prosecuted for attacking intruders into houses, commercial premises or private land. Only 7 of these appear to have resulted from domestic household burglaries.
     
  9. yam350

    yam350 Loaded Pockets

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    Thank you for that Safety1st. I find that interesting and encouraging, not that I particularly want to kill an intruder in my house but if I should then it is good to know that a prison sentence is not a foregone conclusion. It shows that the courts are thinking rather than just assuming that all violence is unjustified and a crime.
     
  10. durhamsurvivor

    durhamsurvivor Empty Pockets

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  11. Safety1st

    Safety1st Loaded Pockets

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    durhamsurvivor.. :help:

    please get a hang of the quote system..as your replies are getting harder to understand...

    There needs to be a [/quote] after each line that you're talking about... then start again...

    For example see my post #17 above :)

    PM me if you need help.

    Regards,
    Gary
     
  12. jag-engr
    • Administrator

    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
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    :iagree:
     
  13. MikeDub

    MikeDub Loaded Pockets

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    :popcorn: :popcorn:
    An interesting debate, even for us in the US.
     
  14. phill

    phill Loaded Pockets

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    He shot them both as they tried to flee through a window, and the fatal shot that klled one was when he shot him outside the farmhouse in the back.

    It is totally relevent, because in this country you need to be acting in self defense when you kill someone. That is the difference between lawful killing and murder. If he isnt acting in self defense then he was a murderer and his conviction of murder should have stood up. He only got the conviction lessened because of diminished responsibility due to a paranoid personality disorder. At best he should have never served time and should still be locked up in a mental institute - it was said best:

    "The chairman of the parole board, Sir David Hatch, in an interview with The Times described Martin as "a very dangerous man"."

    There are plenty of cases as shown by Safety1st (thanks for posting them btw) where people have killed in self defense and had no punishment for doing so. I do not accept that the public can kill in error, it is either justified or it isnt, but the forces and the police are always going to have to tread a finer line and they will make mistakes. The reasoning being there needs to be an extreme set of circumstances for a member of the public to be justified to use lethal force.

    Fwiw, i believe those soldiers shouldnt have been convincted going on what little you have said and assuming there isnt something in the case that would sway my view. I also think the cops should have been punished and some people should have either been moved off that unit to normal policing or lost their job, maybe be tried for a lower crime depending on the facts of the case, but i do not think at all any of the officers should have been tried for murder and by that token i dont think anyone should ever use that term to describe what happened - just as i wouldnt expect a soldier in Afghanistan to be tried for murder for a friendly fire incident unless there is very specific reason to think they knew they were wrong when they took that operational decision.

    You cant have cops second guessing if the suspect is a terrorist about to blow up the tube killing dozens of innocent people or if there is just a series of errors and that they are actually just some Brazilian electrician who is innocent. When it gets down to the cruch and its time to pull the trigger they need to not have doubt that if others have made errors in the process they will be tried for murder - that just isnt going to work.

    Of course i hope it isnt a family member, just as i hope that a family member isnt killed in the next inevitable successful terrorist attack. I have no huge problem if it is, its a tragedy but its just the way things go and ill get over it. Im not saying the cops shouldnt be punished, but we cannot hold these officers to the same legal standards in a lawful/unlawful killing judgement as a member of the public.

    When we are talking about cases like these this is not about an innocent suspect walking free. Menezes was not shot because he was about to escape the unit following him, they shot him because at the time they deemed him a threat. Im not in a position to say if they were int he wrong to do so, but this is not about a suspect going free or killing an innocent person - they killed him because they thought he could have killed many other innocent people.

    ------

    Anyway, i think this is getting a bit off track. To loop it back around to where we started, i think my biggest problem with you carrying something as clearly illegal as that boot dagger is that you are no different than a hoody wearing yob when you do so. Now you may think you are doing it to protect yourself, and im not telling you that you shouldnt have the right to do so, however that is nothing but a weapon and would never be treated differently in this country.

    So the problem is when you or anyone misuses a knife like that you run the risk of stopping other people from legally owning the same type of knives who arent misusing them. Its like when the Samurai sword ban came in, it was the normal collectors who were most effected and all because of a minority who were misusing them.

    Now, it wont directly effect me if they ban all daggers tomorrow as i dont own any (though ive wanted a SOG Desert Dagger a while), but its not helping 'the cause' to have someone who is clearly into gear and EDC to carry something where you cannot argue anything but it being an illegal weapon. If you are going to do that then go all the way and get an ASP or a taser, but in any case there are plenty of legal alternatives of items to carry that can be used at the time for defending oneself. From the grey area of a folding lock knife where you are skirting the issue of why you have it, to something like a flashlight or a cane where no one will care that you have it. Plus the knife itself has no big value as a weapon other than being a bit scary looking, a heavy blunt object or a fast long reach cane will trump knives for self defense every day of the week (possibly with the exception of if you are trained in knife fighting). Not that im advising you to carry something that can be used as a weapon...

    Im being honest, thats my view on you carrying that knife and you are very free to dismiss it, i would take no offense from that.
     
  15. durhamsurvivor

    durhamsurvivor Empty Pockets

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    Phil you are missing the point entirely Tony Martin was put into that position by the police, no one else, the gang was repeadedly raiding his farm, the police formally told him they would not attend further 999 calls, Mr Martin was abandoned by the very people who are supposed to make the need for people to carry weapons uneccessary. How many times should a victim allow multiple criminals to repeadedly force entry into his home in the middle of the niight before he snaps?. How would you feel if some scum kept breaking into your house mob handed time after time and the police told you that you were on your own? If tony martin was ( and he was) put outside the full protection of the law then why should he comply with those same laws himself. the police in Norfolk abandoned him then punished him for trying to preserve what little of his possessions he gad left. Whether he was a crack pot or saint, his character is of no bearing, He should have been given the protection under the law he was entitled to.

    Second JC Menezes was NOT a suspect, the police had nothing on him, no reason to suspect him, he was not even in police jargon " A person of interest", He was a completely innocent law abidding citizen, going about his lawful business. He did not run into the tube station as the police claimed he walked in stopped to pick up a free newspaper and strolled down the stairs, he did not jump the barrier as the police claimed, he used his tiocket to gain access, he was not wearing a padded jacket that could conceal a bomb as the police claimed, he was wearing a light denim jacket. He did not even look anything like the real suspect . But that still did not prevent those police officers arriving late, rushing into a tube station runiing up to a completely uninvolved innocent man and putting 7 rounds into his head, then trying to lie and the facts leading up to murder. When the young lads in Ulster stole a car and drove at high speed into an army checkpoint causing the Paras on duty to believ it was either a drive by shooting or car bomb, they opened fire and killed at least one of the criminals. One of the soldiers was convicted of murder because the police and courts said that fear for your own life and fear for public safety was not a justifiable reason to open fire. So a soldier being attacked in a terror attack strong point can not open fire if in fear for his life, but a policeman can shoot dead a completely innocent person riding peacefully on a tube train. Its yet another example of the police no being held accountable to the same rules , values and laws as the rest of us.

    The sad tragedy is that the courts and government in a misguided effort to protect the polices authority and respect in the eyes of the public, time after time they do not prosecute fire arms officers when they break the law. the guy with the chair leg is a perfect example, so is the guy driving a car similar to a wanted criminal. I wish we had millions more police officers on the street but they must be held to the same rules and values as the rest of us.

    Two lesser cases spring to mind. In Gateshead a young lady was prosecuted for driving while eating an apple, it made regional TV the police wre adamant that she was not in full control of her vehicle and must be punished. Fair enough you said, but within a week photos of a PC driving a marked patrol car came to light , he was driving, stopped and lights then driving on again while eating a sandwich. When the media contacted the police and asked about the similarity between both offences and asked if the officer would be prosecuted they said no. he was verbally repremanded by his boss. The other was the disgraceful behaviour of two Nortyh Yorks officers who used their specialist knowledge of the RT act to avoid being prosecuted for speeding offences. They did break the speed limit unlawfully that is fully documented, but they got off because they claimed the thin black border edge on the road signs themselves werew not as per legal specification therefore they did not have to comply with them. It cause outrage up here, but to no avail.

    It appears to many older people like myself that respect for the police is no longer earned by their deeds, they just try to command respect without earning it. ( Of course 90% of bobbies are not like that, but if only ten percent are then it still erodes the publics faith in the bobbies)

    Your point about boot knives is very valid and honestly wise, and I accept that, to a point my sting will now only be used up in the dales as a double edged blade is better for much rope cutting and splicing, and I would rather buggering up the sting than any of my folders. BTW in 53 years I have never pulled a knife or other weapon on anyone, I prefer to walk or run away, I carry blades like knifes for the same reason i carry flashlights, multi tools and lighters, IE they are handy tools.

    Finally ( sorry for the long post I'm getting back on topic after this) YES we do have the right to self defence in the UK using reasonable force BUT we are denied the safest, purposely designed and best tools to do the job. We are forced to improvise when puts us in more danger. That is absolutely wrong. Criminals DO NOT go out to attack, rob rape, mug or murder bobies they go out to attack the most vulnerable in society, but the government and the police campaign to prevent those future victims from having access to the same tools as they claim for themselves.

    Last bit :) According to the Home secretary and the ACPO " Self Defence is not a justifiable reason for owning a gun" Yet there are serving British MPs who are routinely armed for self defence ( In ulster admittedly) but it shows the utter hypocracty and double standards, If a booby or MP can be tooled up for self defence then why not the district nurse, taxi driver, store detective, etc.

    Rant over getting back on topic now :)
     
  16. Flash

    Flash Loaded Pockets

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    When the Lord was creating Police officers, he was into his sixth day of
    overtime when an angel appeared and said,
    "You're doing a lot of fiddling around on this one."

    And the Lord said, "Have you read the spec on this order? A police officer has
    to be able to run five miles through alleys in the dark, scale walls, enter
    homes the health inspector wouldn't touch, and not wrinkle his uniform.

    "He has to be able to sit in an undercover car all day on a stakeout, cover a
    homicide scene that night, canvass the neighborhood for witnesses,
    and testify in court the next day.

    "He has to be in top physical condition at all times, running on black coffee
    and half-eaten meals. And he has to have six pairs of hands."

    The angel shook her head slowly and said, "Six pairs of hands... no way."

    "It's not the hands that are causing me problems," said the Lord, "it's the
    three pairs of eyes an officer has to have."

    "That's on the standard model?" asked the angel.

    The Lord nodded. One pair that sees through a bulge in a pocket before he asks,
    "May I see what's in there, sir?" (When he already knows and wishes he'd taken
    that accounting job.) "Another pair here in the side of his head for his
    partners' safety. And another pair of eyes here in front that can look
    reassuringly at a bleeding victim and say, 'You'll be all right ma'am, when he knows it isn't so."

    "Lord," said the angel, touching his sleeve, "rest and work on this tomorrow."

    "I can't," said the Lord, "I already have a model that can talk a 250 pound
    drunk into a patrol car without incident and feed a family of five on a civil service paycheck."

    The angel circled the model of the peace officer very slowly, "Can it think?" she asked.

    "You bet," said the Lord. "It can tell you the elements of a hundred crimes;
    recite legal definitions in its sleep; detain, investigate, search, and arrest
    a gang member on the street in less time than it takes five learned judges to
    debate the legality of the stop... and still it keeps its sense of humor.

    This officer also has phenomenal personal control. He can deal with crime
    scenes painted in hell, coax a confession from a child abuser, comfort a murder
    victim's family, and then read in the daily paper how law enforcement isn't
    sensitive to the rights of criminal suspects."

    Finally, the angel bent over and ran her finger across the cheek of the peace
    officer. "There's a leak," she pronounced. "I told you that you were trying to
    put too much into this model."

    "That's not a leak," said the lord, "it's a tear."

    "What's the tear for?" asked the angel.

    "It's for bottled-up emotions, for fallen comrades, for commitment to that
    funny piece of cloth called the Union flag, for justice."

    and for being criticized by people that do not understand what he does
     
  17. Safety1st

    Safety1st Loaded Pockets

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    :iagree:

    Nice one flash.. thanks mate. :)

    O0
     
  18. Flash

    Flash Loaded Pockets

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    No problems....watch your back my brother in arms :highfive:
     
  19. durhamsurvivor

    durhamsurvivor Empty Pockets

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    What an excellent parable, if you dont mind I will forward it to the bobbies in my family, its really neat.

    Being a career soldier though I must admit to prefering the following
    The Soldier

    It is the soldier, not the reporter,
    who has given us freedom of the press.

    It is the soldier, not the poet,
    who has given us freedom of speech.

    It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
    who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

    It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
    who has given us the right to a fair trial.

    It is the soldier, not the policeman,
    who protects our civil liberties.

    It is the soldier,
    who salutes the flag,
    who serves under the flag,
    and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
    who allows the protester to burn the flag.

    Respects as always to all
    Ds



     
  20. Flash

    Flash Loaded Pockets

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