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Am I crazy? (defending pets)

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by moostapha, Aug 19, 2015.

  1. Chicago-Spike

    Chicago-Spike Loaded Pockets

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    Why ask this question? If you do not see what the best answer is, then you perhaps should not own a dog or a gun. Best answer: GO TO DOG TRAINING AND TRAIN YOUR DOG AND YOU! I have a Belgian Malinois, as seen in my avatar. Police and Special Forces use these dogs and Max was being trained for police work. When our doorbell rings he is trained to go on his "climb" and wait for further commands. The climb is a simple elevated dog bed/hammock you can get at any pet store. The climb is within view of our front door so the stranger can see my "deterrent" Now I have control over what happens, if I give one command he comes off the climb and greets the person like any other dog by getting a toy and wanting to play. If I give another command he comes off his climb and will protect his pack.
    You need to gain control of your dog and the rest of the answer is YES you are crazy for asking if it is OK for you to shoot someone over your dog. You're not Jonathon Wick
     
  2. Chicago-Spike

    Chicago-Spike Loaded Pockets

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    Yep, take those signs off your fences or doors. If a kid provokes your dog into attacking, that sign will be the death of your dog. You knew beforehand that your dog was aggressive because you had the warning signs up. And you allowed that animal to attack an "innocent" child and the judge will likely want the dog destroyed
     
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  3. LostLenny19

    LostLenny19 Empty Pockets

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    Isnt this the entire point of the thread? That someone hypothetically misjudged a dog's intent and shot it?So those people who can see the intent wouldnt really fall into this area and probably wouldnt shoot a happy dog, correct? Also for all u "keep your dogs under control" people.. a dog has a mind of its own and you need to be a great trainer to make certain breeds act perfectly. Ok so maybe if u cant control it u shouldnt have it, right? What does that say about someone who uses a firearm in an ambiguous situation? Who is the one not doing their diligence? "Control your dog, i dont have to control my weapon"
     
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  4. smokingfish

    smokingfish Loaded Pockets

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    I have a wolf pup, she's still under 6 months old, but everyone that comes over is notified about my 'dog'. Don't attempt to pet her, even if she's wagging her tail, i guess tail wagging is different with wolves and dogs, mine will wag her tail while snarling at you.
    But yeah, it's better to put your dog away in a kennel if people are coming over.
     
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  5. Shike

    Shike Loaded Pockets

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    Wolf or hybrid? I had a Sarloos that is why I ask. See my response about tail wagging at the bottom of page 5.
     
  6. Civilian

    Civilian Loaded Pockets

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    I just read the first post and I don't think I could have ever devised a more horrendous "worst case scenario".
     
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  7. smokingfish

    smokingfish Loaded Pockets

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    Not a hybrid, since they are pure bred. They're indigenous to a korean island, Jindo.

    Here's one of the 5 month old critters response to a photoshoot.
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Monocrom

    Monocrom Loaded Pockets

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    A dog large enough to do damage is running towards you, acting aggressively.... What would a reasonable person do in such a situation? Honestly, if he has a gun, he's going to shoot it. (Yeah, I get it. Let's leave legal considerations out.) Honestly though, that's the legal standard that's used. It is ridiculously unrealistic in such a situation to expect the person armed with a gun to instantly be able to recognize whether or not such a dog is about to attack, or is just REALLY friendly. Guess wrong and get a free trip to the E.R. or the morgue.

    In such a situation, if that person decides to shoot, he's still in control of his weapon.

    Also, legally speaking, if a dog runs wild; yes, the owner is completely held responsible. Again, just the way it is. Try telling a judge you can't control your dog 100% of the time. Try telling one that a dog has it's own mind, that you're not a Super Trainer. You're going to get told to keep the animal chained up in the backyard. (If Animal Control doesn't take it away, and put it to sleep because it attacked someone.)
     
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  9. LostLenny19

    LostLenny19 Empty Pockets

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    See theres the thing.. incompetence as a dog owner is unforgivable, but as a gun owner, its up to everyone else to keep you from tough situations? Like i said.. take a step back thru the door. A reasonable person is not going to assume the dog in this persons home is a police or trained attack dog (unless entering a coinciding house, in which case whole convo is irrelevant). And unless the animal is trained as such, a healthy adult should have the ingenuity to deal with a dog. True, not everyone does, but if you can't make those decisions how can you have a weapon? Your personal safety is so important that its ok to bomb away at whatever u feel is scary and hope you were right? And heres another wrinkle.. 95% of people untrained enough to pull on a domestic dog are gonna miss. Snap decision, fast draw, moving target, handgun, ordinary citizen.. recipe for a bad miss. Now where did that bullet go.. hope its just in a wall, not the homeowner...
     
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  10. jag-engr
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    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
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    So your thinking is that unless a dog is specifically trained as an attack animal, it is not dangerous and can simply be out-smarted? This argument is illogical and ignores the number of violent or even fatal dog attacks that actually do occur. In the last ten years (2005-2014), on average, pit bulls alone (statistically the most dangerous dog) kill one American every 18 days.

    You may be thinking of a dog you know that "nips" or likes to "play bite" and thinking that shooting the dog is overkill, but "healthy adults" are badly injured and killed in dog attacks. This is not a paranoid fantasy.
     
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  11. Monocrom

    Monocrom Loaded Pockets

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    Once again, you're assuming that a well-adjusted person is simply going to assume that the dog owner is not going to let his dog near a person unless he's reasonably sure it won't attack the guest. That's an assumption that doesn't work in the real world. Plenty of careless dog owners out there. Some who actually believe that their pets are their children.... And worse yet, that letting them run wild and "be themselves" is perfectly fine.

    When someone does that with actual children, there's no threat of harm to the visitor. Doing that with a dog physically capable of doing real damage.... Yeah, no. I've been in homes where the large dog was little more than a large puppy who simply wanted to play. I didn't feel threatened. I've been in homes where an irresponsible dog owner, usually someone I already knew, let his dogs get way too aggressive with me. I was lucky that nothing happened to me. In each case, I never went back. Such owners.... Just a matter of time before a tragedy happens.

    No one lets their Glock run free. You don't have to worry about a person's .38 Special, or .380 Auto coming out and wondering if it just "wants to play." There's nothing at all irresponsible about a gun owner shooting a dog if he genuinely believes the dog is charging at him to attack instead of wanting to play. It's up to the dog owner to exercise proper responsibility as well. If you know guests in the past have felt scared or awkward because your dog is too playfully aggressive, keep him away from guests. At least until you can slowly and carefully introduce them to your dog. So they can see that he's large but playful.

    If a dog owner doesn't do that, if he doesn't act responsibility; then I'm sorry but he can't blame the guest for shooting the dog if the guest genuinely was afraid for his Life or in fear of great bodily injury. That happens.... It's not the gun-carrying guest who acted irresponsibly.
     
  12. Grimley

    Grimley Loaded Pockets

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    With respect, the fact that firearms are illegal and not available is the reason I have never needed anything more than my fists to protect myself from any altercation, from this I would consider it lucky
     
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  13. Shike

    Shike Loaded Pockets

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    Looks a bit like a dingo. Nice.
     
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  14. jerit

    jerit Loaded Pockets

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    Should people be concerned about someone who can find a moral equivalence between killing a human being, and killing an animal ?
     
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  15. Monocrom

    Monocrom Loaded Pockets

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    That would make sense if gun control laws actually worked. Handguns are banned in NYC except for law enforcement and certain special permit holders. Yet, handgun-related crimes are the biggest issue in the city. Entire state of Illinois has banned handgun ownership. Yet criminals still get their hands on them.

    Even in places where they're not manufactured, all you need is a quick trip to the hardware store to make a fully functional 12 gauge shotgun. No power-tools required. Used to be that certain nations banned certain books, on certain subject matters. Now you can check youtube for detailed instructions on how to put together modern-day "zip guns." Actually, anyone can.
     
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  16. LostLenny19

    LostLenny19 Empty Pockets

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    Ppl my point is not to assume everyone can tell if a dog is friendly or that they can successfully fight off a dog if it came to that. My point is that as a gun owner, are u not at least somewhat required to do whatever you can to not use it? Are the only options to shoot or fight the dog?

    My buddies have a skunk under their deck and the other night one of the guys walked out the door to the skunk a couple ft away. 2 steps back and door slammed and crisis averted.
    My broad point is many many of us walk around dealing with these situations non violently in our day to day lives. Why, if you have a firearm, are you suddenly not responsible to do the same?

    i entirely agree that dogs need to be kept control of in regards to surroundings. I just believe that we should be in control as well. We are talking a specific scenario. If this was say, in an open area, nothing around, i would be looking at this differently. Nowhere to hide or run, no options. But with a door beside u... come on. Calm under fire. And if u cant exercise that.. isnt that an argument to not carry?

    Lets take the dog out of it. Someone is rushing toward you, looking angry, no one around, looks like a knife in his hand. This is it, ur getting mugged. Pull and shoot cuz its legal right? Turns out he just looks angry when he concentrates, was in a hurry, and had his glinting breakfast wrapper in his hand and u just shot a random person on the street. But its ok because u had a gun and ur entitled to make it your go-to decision in the face of any perceived threat...
     
    Last edited by LostLenny19, Sep 18, 2015
  17. LostLenny19

    LostLenny19 Empty Pockets

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    No, my thinking is that if a dog attacks me in someones front entrance im going to put the door between me and it. Same thing if it comes at me beside my car. Or near a fence. Etc. If it comes at me in a park or open/unbroken area im probably thinkin a lot harder about my weapon. Might even be on your side in cases like that. Same with if i am protecting someone other than myself, like a child.
     
  18. Ted Andkilde

    Ted Andkilde Loaded Pockets

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    Frankly, no, in my mind, killing a pet on private property is more comparable to killing a small pre-speech child or a disabled person.

    I get the "dangerous animal, running wild" argument, but the OP was talking about an uninvited guest entering private property unbidden, then shooting a pet in its own yard.

    I am certainly an advocate of good training, and I do not own a firearm, but, if you unlatch my gate, enter my property and do harm to my pet, you're probably not going to be the one who gets to explain your actions to the police.

    As for human lives over dogs, how many dogs hijacked airliners and flew them into the towers on 9/11? Or any other countless atrocities? Human's suck. And, barring mental illness, when they do, it's by choice.

    Cheers, Ted
     
  19. Monocrom

    Monocrom Loaded Pockets

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    But you keep harping on the same point, and refuse to see anyone else's. Yes, as a responsible gun owner, an individual is required to use his firearm responsibly. What you refuse to acknowledge is the fact that when a big, aggressive dog is charging at someone; and that someone pulls out a gun and shoots the dog.... he is using his gun responsibly. You might not think so. But he is. That's why people carry handguns. It's why they go through the trouble of getting a CCW permit. To defend themselves against death or great bodily harm. Doesn't matter if the realistic threat of those two things is coming from a 2-legged man or a 4-legged animal.

    What other realistic options are there? Seriously?.... Running away from the charging dog. Yeah, no one is that fast. Just a fact of life that everyone can agree on. If you're facing a dog large enough to do damage if he reaches you, charging towards you; you turn around and run.... You're going to lose! What other options do people have?? Either shoot, or fight with whatever you have. I mean if you expect people to just stand there and hope the dog won't tear into their flesh.... Nope, sorry; that's not an option!

    And, comparing a skunk to a large dog with claws and fangs?! I'm sorry but do I really have to point out that a skunk isn't a threat to life and limb? I mean, really?? You get "attacked" by a skunk, you stink like crazy. Take a good long bath in a tub with plenty of tomato sauce. Even then, you're going to stink for a long while and have to wait until the stench wears off. Large dog that attacks a person? Only similarity with a skunk is that the person is going to still end up covered in red stuff.... only it's not going to be tomato sauce.

    A large dog can easily come through your typical hollow core door in a house. But even if the door is solid, you're assuming that the gun owner is physically strong enough to shut that door and make sure it stays that way. But the gun owner could be a petite woman or a physically disabled man, or elderly.

    And no, it's not an argument to not carry. Let's rely on whatever door MIGHT be around?? Let's hope and pray it's not a cheap hollow core door?? How about a situation that isn't so up in the air.

    Honestly, your last paragraph was just silly and unrealistic. Clearly, you believe that a gun owner shooting a large dog charging at him aggressively is an example of a gun owner acting irresponsibily and being hot-headed. Honestly, you're just wrong. I'm not going to sugar coat it. A dog's life, even that of a beloved pet, is not on the same level of importance as that of a human-being's. In the situation being discussed here, a gun owner who shoots the dog is not the one acting irresponsibily. It's the dog's owner who was.

    Dog owners are not idiots. They know how their dogs behave. If you know your dog is too aggressive with visitors, even if he is just aggressively friendly and wants to play, act responsibly! When the guest arrives, lock the dog in the bedroom or another room; or in the backyard. Let him run around and play out there. In such a situation, the gun owner is not going to be forced to shoot the dog if the dog owner acts responsibly. If he is forced. He wasn't the one being irresponsible. He was simply defending himself from what any reasonable person would have seen as a threat to his Life.
     
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  20. jag-engr
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    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
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    Great post, Monocrom. There's only one statement on which we disagree:
    I've unfortunately seen many exceptions to this statement.
     
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