1. Please update your bookmarks to use https://www.edcforums.com/
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Are you a current member with account or password issues?

    Please visit following page for more information

    Dismiss Notice

Am I crazy? (defending pets)

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by moostapha, Aug 19, 2015.

  1. Menlow

    Menlow Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2015
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    245
    I agree that you need to lock you dog in the bedroom when a stranger visits for everyone's safety. But honestly, if anyone ever tried to shoot my dog, I would go to jail. Thats really all there is to it.

    Ben, I really liked and respected your thoughts on the matter. When did human life get so cheap? It has been from Day One. We're not referred to as "cannon fodder" for nothing. But part of the problem is that our (or at least my) opinion of humanity, now that everything is being being recorded and boradcast to the world, sinks further every day. It seems the world is overrun with people who routinely act on their own worst impulses. Its hard not letting myself become a misanthrope sometimes and I have to remind myself there are a lot of good people out there and because they are good, they never make it on the evening news.

    But dogs and other animals are missing that "evil" gene we humans carry about with us, unless it is beat and tortured into them by humans.

    Sorry for going a bit off topic. But I sometimes wonder about this the same as moostapha.
     
  2. kertap75

    kertap75 EDC Junkie!!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    6,492
    Likes Received:
    19,857
    I really don't think this is true and can cause some very dangerous assumptions. While rare some dogs are just born mean. Not everything is a product of environment. Anyone who has owned more then one pet should know this. Each animal has it's own personality even if it is raised and trained exactly the same way. Some of those personality traits will be desirable and some won't. It could be argued that dogs don't think in terms of good and evil like we do, but I'm not sure if that is true either. I think they understand evil and that is the basis for them not liking some people or animals at first sight.
     
    Menlow, Shike and T.H.Cone like this.
  3. jag-engr
    • Administrator
    • +1 Supporter

    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2007
    Messages:
    5,204
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Dogs come from wild animals. They are more intelligent than most animals, but they are still driven by instinct.

    I don't think they understand evil. For example, Hitler and the Nazis frequently had German Shepherds with them. What animals, dogs especially, seem to perceive is intent. Perhaps they instinctively understand subtle clues like body language or smell stress pheromones that can give them clues to person's disposition toward them or toward a person they feel compelled to protect. A pack of dogs will attack an interloper who threatens one of the pack, especially the alpha male or female.
     
    ManVsLawn, kertap75 and T.H.Cone like this.
  4. T.H.Cone

    T.H.Cone I am senor Fluffy, hear me roar

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    10,909
    Likes Received:
    90,866
    This isn't the hypothetical in the OP. This was someone who has a lawful purpose being on your property- like the UPS guy or the meter reader- and where the dog approached aggressively.

    There is a huge difference, in my mind, as to how to deal with either person.
    I'll just say up front that I'm not a profession dog trainer and am completely unqualified to offer advice on this subject. All I can do is relate my personal experience and observations.

    My MIL has a sibling of our dog's- both came from the same litter- and the dog is completely out of control. The difference between the two is night and day. What accounts for the The difference? Simply put, there is an alpha dog at our house and there is none at the in-law's.

    Our dog never enters the house before a human. The dog never eats before a human. The dog never wins a staring contest (we all stare him down). The dog never leads while being walked. He gets random pinches in the butt; mimicking a nip- not hard, mind you, but enough to remind him he is at the bottom of the pack hierarchy. He is routinely disrupted from doing what he wants; he gets called to come when he is eating, relaxing, sleeping, etc. I even charge him on occasion; I like to do it if I catch him looking at meow if he isn't listening to voice commands or otherwise misbehaving. I'm pretty sure he thinks I will eat him.

    The older he gets, the less he need to be reminded who is in charge.

    He is well behaved and well disciplined. Still and all, he is never off leash when hiking nor is he out and about in the yard when we are expecting people.

    Now, my MIL/BIL's dog occasionally gets some pepper spray in the face if there is a substitute mail carrier or something. Very friendly dog, but he will run right up to you, do a few spins, and jump on you. He doesn't do this to me, because we've come to an understanding long ago; and when we have to watch their dog because they are on vacation, he behaves almost as well as ours because, in this pack, he knows he isn't the alpha.

    The other difference between the two dogs is ours gets a lot of exercise. Working breeds that are either not actually working or at least replicating the work with exercise tend to have issues.

    In the end, it is almost never the dog who is at fault for behavior issues, it's the owner.They say there are no bad pets, only bed owners.
    So, you think trying to wrestle a guy with a gun is a good idea?
    All city/rural carriers are issued dog repellant.
     
    PapaRoush, Trespasser, Shike and 3 others like this.
  5. jag-engr
    • Administrator
    • +1 Supporter

    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2007
    Messages:
    5,204
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Well-stated. I could only "like" this post once, so I quoted it to further express approval.

    There was/is a show called "Dog Whisperer" with a trainer named Cesar Milan. He would help people with "problem dogs", but he invariably just taught the people how to handle and train their dogs. Within a few days he could put the humans back in charge of a household. There were families where Grandma could not visit because the dogs were too rowdy and would knock her over! (A strong correlation could be drawn to "Super Nanny", but that's another thread.)

    It's not fair to the dogs to be poorly trained, either. Dogs that are allowed to behave spastically, such as jumping all over owners or guests, have a higher degree of stress than well-trained dogs. This stress sometimes exhibits itself in destructive chewing or intentional toilet misbehavior.
     
  6. T.H.Cone

    T.H.Cone I am senor Fluffy, hear me roar

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    10,909
    Likes Received:
    90,866
    I just shared a fudge pop with the cat. We made the dog watch while we enjoyed our treat just to remind him he's the lowest of the low.
     
    Shike, ManVsLawn and vegassprky like this.
  7. jag-engr
    • Administrator
    • +1 Supporter

    jag-engr Semper Bufo!
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2007
    Messages:
    5,204
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Now if only you could train a cat...
     
    Shike, ManVsLawn and vegassprky like this.
  8. Cr0wb4r

    Cr0wb4r Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2015
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    110
    I would probably rather not wrestle with a guy carrying a gun. :eek: Not a great situation to be in. Then again, if you are in a position where you feel that might be necessary, things have already gone bad.


    But given a worst case scenario where I know the said person has the intent of hurting someone important to me and I am unarmed, I would rather take a bullet trying to beat the living daylights out of the guy than be shot while cowering in a corner.

    Though I may just be one of those "internet commandos" who has lost touch with reality. ;)
    Also, having never been in a situation like that I really can't say how I would react.
     
    ManVsLawn and T.H.Cone like this.
  9. Wesmanthetiger

    Wesmanthetiger Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2015
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    331
    Yes. No matter how much you love your pet, it is still an animal so to fire on a non tresspassing/no criminal intent human that is just trying to protect themselves is criminal. That being said, there is a massive difference between a dog charging to attack and one running up to greet. Unless you have a Rott, Pitbull, or other dog that people perceive (notice I said perceive) as dangerous that scenario is highly unlikely. Simply put, control your animal. Even on your own property you are liable and responsible for what the animal does. I love pets, and I've had dogs most of my life, but an animal's life is Never more valuable than a human's unless said human chooses to risk his/her life for that animal.

    Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
     
  10. Chimay

    Chimay Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    751

    I don't care how the stranger is dressed. If the cable guy, meter reader, walks up to my house or for some reason is in my house and pulls a gun, that's a deadly threat. Even if for some reason I have not previously secured my dog, the last thought in my mind would be that the gun is being drawn in defense from the dog. My thought would be, I'm about to be shot. Whether they are invited onto my property or into my house wouldn't factor into it in my case, explained below.

    A stranger drawing a gun on your property always equals threat, unless you happen to have been talking about guns and they ask you prior to showing you the gun. Locally, you have to tell the property owner if you have a concealed weapon upon entering the property. I realize that does not apply everywhere, but in my case, I should know every gun that is on my property and am legally required to be informed. So if they did have a gun and didn't inform me, they are already in violation of State law. Presenting the gun for any reason without permission is a threat.
     
    ManVsLawn and T.H.Cone like this.
  11. vegassprky
    • GITD Manix 2XL Owner
    • In Omnia Paratus

    vegassprky Loaded Circuits

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Messages:
    11,578
    Likes Received:
    63,696
    People need to control their animals no matter what they have. My experience was years ago when I was working in Utah wiring houses, I was running temporary wire to houses to power up the furnaces. As I was walking around these houses a carpenter crew had a Doberman running loose and he started running toward me, at the time I was wearing my tool belt including a hammer. I pulled out the hammer and said to the dog to come on, it stopped in it's tracks then went back to the carpenters. I was fully ready to use the hammer as the snow was over a foot deep and I couldn't out do the dog, but was glad it decided I wasn't going to run and went away.
     
    Shike, ManVsLawn and T.H.Cone like this.
  12. baccar-3

    baccar-3 Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,489
    Likes Received:
    7,604
    I bicycle a lot and have been attacked by dogs on several occasions---pepper spray always worked---The only dog I would shoot would have to be wild and feral.

    Just because someone is dumber than their doberman is no reason to kill the dog, nor the owner.
     
  13. Wesmanthetiger

    Wesmanthetiger Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2015
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    331
    I think it's real simple actually. If you shoot someone for shooting your dog, be it in public or on your property you are going to lose. Badly. Unless there are some serious extenuating circumstances you will be found guilty and/or liable. You can't leave the legal consequences out of it a scenario like that. Saying it's your property and that you take anyone pulling a gun on your property as a threat to you is just words. Intent is always part of it. Let's say someone breaks into your house and you shoot them. Police come and find a body riddled with bullets you should be within your rights. They find a body with two in the back of the head you may be in for some trouble. Your intent is just as important as the scenario.

    Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
     
    Shike, ManVsLawn and baccar-3 like this.
  14. ManVsLawn

    ManVsLawn EDC Junkie!!!!!

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2014
    Messages:
    4,946
    Likes Received:
    96,596
    Just a quick side note -

    They say there are no bad pets, just bad owners.

    I was fostering a dog that literally 'flipped' a switch. It was an adolescent mix/mut, and it probably had some pit bull in it.

    I was fostering it for about a month, and it just 'flipped'. It went from being sweet and sleeping on the couch, playing, going for walk..... to me locking it outside for most of the night - I was afraid it would attack me, or the roommates

    I 'returned' the dog after a few days, after I attempted to calm and regain the trust of the beast.

    Since it was a foster, I noted these issues. The person ultimately responsible for the dog ran some scans and discovered a large tumor pressing on parts of his brain.

    The dog had to be put down. It was not the owners fault, nor the dog's fault. It was medical.

    I just wanted to make it clear that other factors may cause a dog to become aggressive. It could be a biological, chemical, or tumor related issue, just like with humans.
     
    jag-engr, Lou_G, Shike and 2 others like this.
  15. Wesmanthetiger

    Wesmanthetiger Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2015
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    331
    In the end it doesn't matter. The owner is responsible in the eyes of the law. In your situation I'm not sure if that would have been you or the person you were helping, but legally it really is irrelevant.

    Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
     
    ManVsLawn likes this.
  16. ManVsLawn

    ManVsLawn EDC Junkie!!!!!

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2014
    Messages:
    4,946
    Likes Received:
    96,596

    I personally felt 'unable' to control the dog. especially with the hours I worked, hence, it was returned to the 'responsible party.'

    This was done based on what you mentioned, and my own ideologies involving pets. I would not be the 'owner' of a 'aggressive' dog, regardless of the reasons.

    I was just noting that things can 'flip'. They can change, it is a beast, with instincts. There is a King of the Hill about Hank's dog being a 'racist'. Turns out, Hank just didn't like repairmen, and the dog sensed it. I know it is a cartoon, but it could apply to reality. You don't like the looks of the person approaching your house, and the dog overreacts and attacks.

    A dog may love all people, but that darn new UPS guy really didn't sit well with him.

    Better safe than sorry - lock them away until the person is introduced in a safe/controlled fashion. From friends, to family, to the mail guy. I usually put all the animals in separate rooms when company comes by, and release them one by one, safely.
     
    Shike and Chimay like this.
  17. Wesmanthetiger

    Wesmanthetiger Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2015
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    331
    And that's why you are a responsible pet owner. We need more like you. And sorry for totally derailing thread. ;)

    Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
     
    Shike and ManVsLawn like this.
  18. Menlow

    Menlow Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2015
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    245
    Animals kill to defend or for food. Humans, so far as I can tell, is the only species that can kill for the mere thrill, or sport, of it. There is a reason we are at the top of the food chain. We are the most dangerous animals alive.
     
    ManVsLawn and kertap75 like this.
  19. Chimay

    Chimay Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    751
    I agree if you shoot someone for shooting your dog then yes legally you are not in a good spot. If you shoot someone who draws/fires a gun on your property in front of you that is a whole different thing. Your intent isn't killing the guy who killed your dog. Your intent is protecting yourself and family from the bad guy with the gun. Yes intent does have something to do with it, that's the undertone of what I've been saying the whole time and is key for not experiencing the legal consequences you speak of.

    Obviously if you hear a gun shot and go outside and see a guy putting his gun away and your dog dead you can't legally shoot him then. If you see the guy drawing a gun, the first conclusion isn't he's going to protect himself from my wonderful dog that's going over to make friends.
     
    ManVsLawn likes this.
  20. Menlow

    Menlow Loaded Pockets

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2015
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    245
    Good thread with a lot of good perspectives. There is no way to create a good outcome from this scenario. Lesson: when strangers come in, lock the dog away. Everyone will go home happy.