Gun nuts, I'm calling you out! Which is better .45 or .357?

[Deaths Head]

I plan on buying a revolver for home-defense. It is going to be a 4 inch. Which would you recommend the .45 or the .357? I have done some research, and the opinions I have seen are pretty much divided. I figured put the question out here where there are people that I know.

[traveler]

Which is better is really subjective, DH. Depends on who ask. I am partial to the .357 myself, due to the wide variety of ammo in that caliber, as well as the fact that you can sub-load .38 special in it. Thats just my opinion: you would be well served with either .45 or .357.

[Crocodilo]

I'm also partial to the 357. Only exception on my advise would be if you already have and use another 45 gun.

Besides, having pistol ammo in a revolver (moon clips and all) doesn't strike me as the better way to go.

[Lee1959]

Better is very subjective in a handgun. First it depends, in .45 do you mean .45 LC or .45 ACP. If ACP you have to deal with some type of clip system, full moon or half moon are examples. Do you reload?

As for which caliber is better, it completely depends upon which you happen to shoot better. The .357 has the beneifit of being able to use two readily available cartridges in .38 and .357 for when buying and finding ammunition, especially when scrounging.

IF, you do not reload I will say .357 magnum. If you do, either, but .357 is lighter, still uses two types of ammunition and the handgun is marginally smaller andlighter for carry.

[Bruiser]

As you can tell from my avatar, I'm partial to a .45 1911. *;D However, for strictly a home defense firearm, you can't go wrong with a revolver. Point, and pull the trigger. I'd advise on adding night sights also.

That being said, you'd get more versatility from the .357 (being able to use different loads), but as I said, I'm partial to the .45

[Codeman]

I agree with Lee1959. *.45 Long Colt has too much penetration potential for home defense use, IMO. *.45ACP in a revolver isn't an ideal home defense setup either, IMO, due to the need for clips - an extra potential point of failure that I don't want in a defense gun. *In the world of revolvers, I think the .357 is the ideal pick for home defense, since you've got a wide range of commerical ammunition in with .357 & .38 so that you can tailor the rounds for your particular needs.

One thing to keep in mind is over-penetration. *If there's a possibility of a friendly being in another room, you want to minimize the possibility of bullets going through walls and hitting things you don't want to hit.

That's the main reason I like a short 12 gauge shotgun with #6 or #7 shot. *There's less risk downrange, yet it's just as effective at protecting your life as high power pistol rounds.

I'm not a big revolver fan, mainly just a personal taste thing. I rely on a Glock 19 and a ParaOrdance .45ACP. The Glock has tritium sights, but I don't think they serve much purpose in a self-defense role. If it's dark enough to need tritium sights, can you safely identify the target? If it's too dark to clearly ID the bad guy and you shoot, that very well may come back to haunt you in court. That's less of a risk in your own home than when out in public, but it's still something to consider. I think the value of a good, bright flashlight is far higher than tritium sights in a self-defense situation. Night sights are definitely cool, but threy are more suited to offensive rather than defensive roles.

[Deaths Head]

I am talking about the ACP. I actually already own a Glock 34 which is a 9mm. And a Colt 1911A1. I've got a 12 guage laying around as well. I want to get rid of the Glock 34. I thought it would be fun to go with a revolver for once, but can't decide between a .357 or a .45APC. If there wasn't a huge difference, then I will buy which ever comes up first at gunbroker.com. But if there is a significant advantage of one over the other, then I'll have to be patient.

[colubrid]

I am a .45 fan but I would say a .357/.38 revolver is best. Only thing I would change for you is get a 3" model instead of a 4". The 3" are worth more, balance better and shoot just as accurate. I would also go for a K frame instead of the larger L frame models. Also do you want adjustable sights or fixed?

[Deaths Head]

What if you had to choose between a 4 inch and a 6 inch? Those are my choices with this model.

[Lee1959]

4 inch all the way. My Redhawk was 5.5 inches and I had it cut down to 4.5 inches. The shorter tube is just too handy for carry, and you really do not loose that much in sight radius for practical shooting.

I would normally say go with the .357 since moon clips add one extra step, however since you already own a .45 acp, you might be so inclined to buy the .45 acp as a backup companion to the Colt. One thing in moon clips favor though, is they act very much like a speed loader in many ways and can with practice become quite easy to use. I believe there are ecen some new clip arrangements that are very good to use. Make sure to buy the reloading tool for the moon clips, it makes taking empties off the clip and loading them with fresh ammo much easier on the hands.

[VWTim]

I was just about to comment on the moon clips being used as speed loaders. And the fact you already own a .45 makes ammo easier, one less thing to store. But it comes down to what you want. They'll both serve you great.

[kamkazmoto]

Have you fired a .357? Head down to your local gun range and try it. I like the paper ballistics of a .357 but I can't stand the high pitched crack that comes with full bore ammo. .38spl doesn't bother me just the .357. It sounds like a silly thing but it was enough for me to notice that I wasn't practicing as much as I should be.

[Deaths Head]

I tried them both, but it has been a while that I playedwith a .357. I'll have to try it again to find out what you are referring to.

[Yablanowitz]

Glad someone finally mentioned noise. If you ever had to use that .357 Mag inside your house you can count on some long term, if not permanent, hearing loss. The .45 ACP is loud in a small room, but not damagingly so. Remember, if the situation arises, you will NOT be wearing hearing protection. On the other hand, the burglar won't be wearing any either, so a couple of Federal 125 gr. Magnums should render him temporarily deaf and blind even if you miss ;D

[gearloose]

I'd vote for the 357 revlover every time for all the reasons already mentioned.Look for a used 7 shot Smith at the Smith forums sale pages.Don't worry about the deafness problem, numerous studies have identified a phenomenon called the fog of war. It happens when your body tightens up , your vision narrows and your pulse goes up, this is where your training kicks in. People who have been involved in shootings inside cars have reprted that they didn't even notice the sound, so dont worry about that

By the way you're not saying gun nut like it's a bad thing are you?

[JonSidneyB]

In 357 the 125 1450 fps loads have an impressive track record on the street. *It has been matched but not beaten.

On the question of barrel length, that is up to your environment. *When I was in Oklhoma or if I am in the field, I go with 6 inch barrels. *On the prarie the action is not as fast as the distances are longer and most of the shots are taken from a steady position where you can take advantage of the longer sight radius. *6 inch barrels are not more accurate, but instead they allow for a more precise alignment if you have plent of time to think about how much light you see on both sides of the blade. *If the gun is going to be worn in a car, I would go 3 inches. *If in the home only, I have a though time deciding between 3 and 4 inches. *The closer range the action and the more crowded the conditions, the more I like a shorter barrel. *In a home, it would depend on the layout but I would not feel under armed with a 3 or 4 inch gun. *The 6 inch gun could be deployed well in a home but there are things that could go wrong with it but woud still feel well armed with a 6 inch gun in the home but not my 1st choice.

I should ask if you are in a rural area, secondary use might help make the choice. * 6 inch gun=great field gun *good defence gun *4 inch gun=good field gun great defence gun. *3 inch gun same as the 4 inch gun but a little better at very close range.

[Deaths Head]

Jon, I live in a suburban area. When it comes down to it, if I need to defend my family, I will probably grab the shotty, but if I am going to buy a firearm, I might as well keep the home defense option in mind.
So with that in mind, sounds like the .357 is traveling much faster. I hear that is a problem with the 9mm as well when it comes to home defense. Having your bullets go through walls as opposed to the .45 which is a heavier load and doesn't travel as fast thus not have as much problems with penetration. Can anyone verify this?

[Codeman]

I wouldn't count on anything larger than #7 bird shot not penetrating the walls in most homes.* Even #7 could go through 2 panels of sheet rock, but probably wouldn't have enough energy to do anything more than sting if it were to then hit someone.* That's why a lot of folks prefer a short shotgun for home defense.

I wouldn't let wall penetration be the deciding factor, but it is definitely something you need to be aware of and something you should plan for ahead of time.* During an attack is not when you want to be trying to figure out whether your chosen weapon could pentrate walls and possibly kill or injure a non-attacker.

BTW - a full-load .357 round has a louder, high-pitched crack as compared to a .45ACP's lower-pitched boom.* Whether you counsciously hear it or not, though, damage to your hearing might occur.* Or, maybe not.* Your ears are going to "hear" it, whether your brain registers it or not.* For me, it's really a moot question because I'd rather be alive with some hearing damage than dead with ears that would otherwise work well.

You seem like you're work through making an intelligent and informed decision.* When you think you've decided on what you want, ask yourself "Will I be comfortable with this and am I willing to practice on a regular basis with it?"* If not, you'll need to keep looking.* Keep in mind, you can reduce practice cost with a .357 by using .38, but you still need to do some practicing with the rounds you intend on using for self-defense.* If you don't, you won't be used to it during the stress of an attack.* You really want your complete setup to seem as comfortable and habitual as any other tool.* Once you've made the decision that you're in eminent danger of death or grave bodily harm and must defend yourself, you want handling of the firearm to be as instinctive as possible.* That moment is not when you want you brain to suddenly "flinch" because you know a full .357 round is going to be louder than what you've been practicing with.

[JonSidneyB]

on penetration, bullet penetraion is a function of four things, velocity, mass, shape, and constructoin. In many designs the bullet actually penetrates less the faster it goes when it starts reaching the upper end of the bullet designs performance envelope, also many designs come apart at high velocity than at low speed. .45 Caliber bullets will have more mass than .357 in general but that is not always true. .45 ACP can typically found between 230 grains down to 165 grains altough there is a rare few outside of this wight. 357 has a very wide range from the rare 90 grain load up to 180 grains and a bit more.

From this I can generalize that .45 acp bullets have more momentum than the .357 bullets at several velocity levels. Often momentum gets confused with energy. On energy only the weakest of .357 loads overlap the highest energy .45 acp loads but in general most .357 loads have more energy but ofen less momentum than .45acp.

We can't say which one will penetrate more without alot more information about the weight, mass, shape, speed, and construction of the bullet as well as information on what barriers the bullet will strike.

[JonSidneyB]

In my shooting I did not hear my gun fire. In fact I had just enough of my mind left to notice that I did not hear my gun fire. I could however seen casings eject and a muzzle flarsh clearer than normal.

[Lee1959]

I have shot a lot of handguns for a long time and for me personally, I find 4-4.5 inch barrels to be the best length for all the shooting I do. I hunt with my Redhawk and have taken a deer the past 15 years with it out to about 50 yards, never had to take a longer shot and most were much closer.

Less than 4 inches and it does start to effect the sighting plane for any distance shooting, and in some handguns, especially larger calibers, throws off the balance of the revolver as it "feels" too muzzle light which tends to make me when defensive point shooting, shoot high.

Longer than 4 inches and the revolver feels too muzzle leavy to me and unbalanced. If used in a defensive point shot it generally makes it go low. Longer barrels also do not carry well on the hip or in cross draw holsters when seated or riding horse.

My Redhawk started out life as a 5.5 inch barrel (I waited for several years to buy the Redhawk for the 5.5 inch barrel as opposed to the 8" inch barrel) then I found it to be "just" too long so I took it ot Mag-Na-Port and worked with them and arrived at 4.5" as best and they did the work.

I have found 4.5 inches to be optimum for me, similar in length and balance to the Colt "Peace Maker", or SAA short barrel, which I feel is the single most perfectly balanced revovler of all time. Remember to take into account sitting, riding, walking whatever you might be planning on doing when wearing the revolver and how it might "ride" on the hip.

I also find smooth grips to be more comfortable when firing heavy magnums than rubber grips that tend* pull at the palm skin. The smooth grip allows the gun to rotate slightly similar to the way the old Colt SAAs did with the plow grip. Also, I have yet to find a rubber grip that fits my hand and feels comfortable to shoot.*

This is of course all personal and very subjective.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/patycake21/Redhawk.jpg

[colubrid]

Glad someone finally mentioned noise. If you ever had to use that .357 Mag inside your house you can count on some long term, if not permanent, hearing loss. The .45 ACP is loud in a small room, but not damagingly so. Remember, if the situation arises, you will NOT be wearing hearing protection. On the other hand, the burglar won't be wearing any either, so a couple of Federal 125 gr. Magnums should render him temporarily deaf and blind even if you miss* ;D


I FIRED A .357 INDOORS AND I CAN HEAR JUST FINE. :buckteeth:

[colubrid]

Death

Go to the Smith and wesson forums and have a look around. The 3" is very popular and sought after. It holds it value more than a 4". The 3" is usually more expensive but if you can find one for a decent price, go for it.

[Lee1959]

Better yet, go to a local gun range, and see if you can try as many variations as you can and see what "feels" best to you, no , matter what others like it still boils down to your hand and "feel".

[0dBm]

I plan on buying a revolver for home-defense. It is going to be a 4 inch. Which would you recommend the .45 or the .357? I have done some research, and the opinions I have seen are pretty much divided. I figured put the question out here where there are people that I know.


My recommendation is the Smith & Wesson Model 620 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14804&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15705&isFirearm=Y).

[traveler]

As for the penetration issue, there are several frangible-type rounds available for both .357 and .45 ACP, and by frangible, it refers to a type of bullet that when it enters the target, it opens, much like a hollowpoint, and releases a small load of pellets, kind of like a mini-shotgun, and transfers a great deal of energy into the target. Best of all, in a home defense situation, if a miss occurs the bullet still comes apart if you hit a wall for instance, thus reducing the harm to whomever is on the other side of that wall. Two manufacturers off the top of my head are Glaser and Mag Safe, and I could be wrong, but Cor-Bon might make something similer.

[HarryN]

I am more of a shot gun type, but the small amount of revolver shooting I have done gave me more confidence with a longer barrel and moderate loads. Once again, many others can shoot circles around me, but I would probably pick a 38+P type load in a 6 inch barrel just to gain the enhanced ability to point it under a difficult situation.

I guess it depends how much time you have to practice.

[Roadkill Bill]

As others have mentioned, having to fire a .357 indoors is no big deal. Maybe it's the adrenaline. I hardly heard the gun go off. I have tenitus, and usually a loud noise will make my ears ring (louder) for days. It didn't bother me at all. Now at the range, it's another story (plugs and muffs). However, the .357 is my second favorite gun to shoot. The .44 mag is #1.

I live in a high crime area, and I normally carry a Glock 21. I like having 14 rounds of .45 ACP without a reload. However, I have a 3" S&W 66 with night sights beside my bed, loaded with 125-gr SJHP. If I could only have one gun, it would be a .357, simply because it gives you three levels of firepower: .38, .38+P, and .357 mag. All three have been doing the job, and doing it well, for many years. So has the .45, but I'm recommending the .357 because of its versatility. I also like the 3" barrel for home defense and carry.

On birdshot for self-defense:
Most LEOs will tell you that bird-shot is an "iffy" choice for self-defense. It is not an effective stopper, especially if heavy clothing is worn. The bad guy might get the next shot off, and he may just get lucky. "Some folks seem more worried about their walls than their lives," as one SWAT officer put it. I know some will say, it's what's on the other side of the wall, but check out the layout of your home and see if that is really a problem. For most folks it isn't. Parents are downstairs, kid's rooms are upstairs, etc. Some of us don't even have kids. I suggest #4 buckshot as your smallest size shot. You are not trying to hurt, or wound, a home invader. You are trying to stop him dead (literally) in his tracks. Unless you are being attacked by a covey of quail, use the appropriate load.

[saniterra]

For absolute power, 357 has it all over the 45. Of course, that is probably important only in terms of shooting into cars, through doors and walls or hunting unless you just prefer noise and recoil. For heavy loads of 357, look at the S&W L-frames, the older N-frames, the Ruger GP-100 or one of the older 357 Redhawks. A hot loaded 357 can be a handful. i

[EricMack]

DH, one thing (IMO) to consider is whether your spouse/significant other would ever have to use this in a pinch. I know in our house, my wife likes to shoot occasionally, even some of my autos, but not enough to get familiar with any of them, especially in a panic situation. Our choice was to get her a Taurus Titanium in .38 Special, a revolver that she could pull out of the mini safe under the bed even in the dead of night, and be ready to go without having to remember anything about safeties, working a slide, etc. In a panic situation, I don't want her to have to remember anything, plus she enjoys shooting it at the range. If you are in a similar situation perhaps some consideration to that .357 revolver merits these kind of thoughts...

[Buffalohump]

Hey,

Man, I love ballistics. I have owned a 2,5 inch Model 19 S&W .357 Magnum (now gone) and a Gvt Model Colt Series 70 (my primary carry and house gun now). I have also done a fair amount of reading on the subject as I find ballistics a most fascinating subject. So here's my 2 cents...

The .357 Magnum is the most effective handgun round that can be carried and concealed (ie, 44 Magnum is more powerful, but who's going to carry that monster?). A vocal exponent of this caliber is Mas Ayoob. I don't know what you guys think about Mas, but I think he's a fairly bright guy with a lot of experience. In his opinion the .357 Magnum is the best man-stopper going. I think this has also been borne out by various tests, including the Marshall-Sanow reports. Of course, with the relatively new calibers like 357 Sig and 40 S&W it might not still be at the top of the heap, but I suspect it always will be.

In terms of barrel length, the longer the better. Reports I have read reckon you lose 100 feet per second for every inch of barrel you go down by. And the effectiveness of the .357 Mag is all based on its incredible velocity. Mas reckons go with the fastest round you can find (he strongly recommends the 125 grain slug with as much powder behind it as possible). Of course, if you happen to miss your target, and the bullet goes whistling off, you'd better hope that the first thing it encounters is a solid brick wall, because it will go straight through most other things and keep on keepin' on.

This is one of the reasons I now fancy the sub-sonic 230 grain .45 ACP slug for my home defense. I really don't want to take a chance of shooting someone in my own household because I missed my target. Ricochets are scary things, and there's many a documented case of bullets doing very bizarre things when they encounter a solid surface and bounce off. So I personally like a big, heavy slug that's going around 900 feet per second. The .45 ACP is also a noted man-stopper, and when using a hollow-point, you've got a good chance of that thing breaking up and not causing too much damage if it goes astray. The same goes with HPs for the .357 Mag of course...

The noise factor? Apparently in a high stress situation you don't even hear the gun going off. Permanent damage? I doubt it, not with one or two shots - unless it went off right next to your head and you were in a very small space, that is.

I could go on all day about this. It's a tough one! In a revolver, though, its hard to resist the .357 Magnum. A Colt Python is a beautiful gun (do they still make them?) And I've heard only good things about Ruger revolvers (SP101). I used to have a hell of a time clearing spent cases from my Smith M19 when I fired hot rounds (the heat causes the brass to expand), which isn't ideal in a SD situation, but perhaps that was just my particular gun (the K-frame is not ideal - the heavier the gun, the better. Particularly if you aren't carrying it every day).

Like I said, a tough one... Good luck with your decision!

[Buffalohump]

My recommendation is the Smith & Wesson Model 620 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14804&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15705&isFirearm=Y).


Woah, what a beautiful piece! 7 shot .357 Mag... In stainless! Awesome weapon...

But that's a big sucker. Wouldn't you rather have something you could carry as well, if need be? I think the Ruger SP101s are pretty cool and apparently tough as nails. Only a five shot though. But only one needs to find its target ;)

[shao.fu.tzer]

I love my .357's and .38's but I love my .45's as well. Full moon clips are THE FASTEST way to reload. Just make sure you buy a ton of them and keep them loaded up.


Shao

[oceanbeamer]

Well Buffolohump I tend to agree with you about the 45acp rounds,,after all the reason the us army called colt up and asked them to develop a real man stopped was that .38 rounds just wern't stopping drugged up rebels in the Philippines...and as for ammo&versatility there are many different power and weight levels of 45acp ammo.....I know all you 357mag fans are devoted ,having owned a ruger sp101 I can see your point....BUT keep in mind if you have to go to court the D.A. is going to pull out the "DIRTY HARRY" angle with any "MAGNUM" caliber...So if this is primarily for home defense..the 45acp is hard to beat...you don't need the rocket fast 357 mag ,,in your home at distances that will rarely exceed 25 ft and often less that that ,if your shooting federal hydroshocks [my favorite for hd&conceled carry] the bad guys are going down every time..

[marlin4570]

I don't think the target will be able to tell the difference. Pick the one you shoot the best, pick good ammunition and practice, practice, practice....

[watchman]

Jon, I live in a suburban area.* When it comes down to it, if I need to defend my family, I will probably grab the shotty, but if I am going to buy a firearm, I might as well keep the home defense option in mind.
So with that in mind, sounds like the .357 is traveling much faster.* I hear that is a problem with the 9mm as well when it comes to home defense.* Having your bullets go through walls as opposed to the .45 which is a heavier load and doesn't travel as fast thus not have as much problems with penetration.* Can anyone verify this?


I am going to throw in a third opshun .44 S&W Special 200g round nose. works for me >:D

[Dizos]

Better yet, go to a local gun range, and see if you can try as many variations as you can and see what "feels" best to you, no , matter what others like it still boils down to your hand and "feel".

Good advice there.

[Mark G]

IMO either caliber at that close a range is irrelevent. If you hand load you have a large variety of loads you can chose both in speed and bullet type. The only difference to compare at this point is an auto versus a revolver. With the modern auto I have never had one jam but the potential exists which would make the revolver superior. Besides after 6 rounds if you didn't hit what you were aiming at you have a totally different problem to face!!!

[Blades]

I would lean towards a .357/.38. More options in ammo.


Blades

[Deaths Head]

I actually could tell the difference between the .357 and 45 in terms of kick and comfort. Of course, the guns that I used were two totally different guns.

[Blades]

I actually could tell the difference between the .357 and 45 in terms of kick and comfort.* Of course, the guns that I used were two totally different guns.



What guns did you shoot, and what type of ammo did you test??
Just wondering.


Blades

[Deaths Head]

I have a 1911, and then I have used a S&W 686.

[Vic303]

If you're just wanting a wheelgun, then I recommend the Ruger GP-100 in .357. You can get them in 3" or 4" (my favorite) or I think a 6" version is out there too.

[Trekker]

I would go with the .357 if I wanted a revolver. Have you thought about a semi? A Glock G20 (10mm) will give you slightly more power (and options) than either the .45 or the .357 and you will have 15 rounds before loading.

[kwg020]

What are you trying to accomplish? Home defense or concealed carry? For home defense a good 38 or 357 revolver and concealed carry a Glock 23. I take it your new to this or you would not be asking this question. If you are new to all of this you should get a 38 special like a colt diamond back or Model 10 smith. If you have been around guns for a while go with a semi auto. The glock or a QUALITY 9MM or .40 smith. If you really get serious, you can step up to a .45 ACP. Don't go over board until you know what your doing. kwg

[cratz2]

Hrmm... Well, I'm a long time fan of the 1911. And if I was the only one likely to shoot it, I'd feel 100% secure with using a 1911. The better performing 45ACP loads are absolutely outstanding. When you consider all the variables, it is essentially equal to the very best the 357 offers.

But... if limited to revolvers, I'd lean towards a 357 over a 45ACP. Just less issues that might trip one up when you REALLY don't need to get tripped up. I have one gun in 45 Colt (or Long Colt as some call it). It's a single action and would not be one of the first guns I'd look to for defense. I'm not sure what kinds of self-defense oriented loads are available for it either.

But in a 4" 357 revolver, there are certainly decisive loads. Among the very best available for any handgun.

Still, I'd always prefer a 12 gauge.

[adorable_harree]

In a 1911, the .45ACP.

In a revolver, the .357. The .45 ACP a good second choice but since no truly small snubbie the size of a J-frame exists, I still prefer the .357/.38.

[Roadkill Bill]

It's funny that this question is still going strong for almost a year now.

The answer is obvious. EITHER ONE.
Everyone knows the stopping power of the .357, and several wars have proven the effectiveness of the .45ACP. Some folks like autos, some like revolvers, but either one is going to do the job, and do it WELL.


I still say that anyone who is going to risk their lives with birdshot as a defensive load is living in a dreamworld. Anything that won't penetrate a wall also will not penetrate a bad guy. You are trying to KILL HIM. A wounded person can still SHOOT BACK.

[StapleGun]

Just remember folks the .22LR has killed more civilians in the USA more than any other caliber, I'm for the .45ACP. Unfortunately my duty firearm is a 9mm. Trooper Mark Coates shot and struck the 'dirtbag' center-mass with his duty .357, the POS hit him with a .22LR. Read the story - http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=420LINK (http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=420)

[HD]

Well myself I am a .45 fan and carry a Sig P245 all the time. The 45 has a proven track record but is not for everyone. If you were going to buy a semi auto then I'd say a 45 but if you are going to but a revolver the 357 would be my answer. Also if you are a new shooter or are just going to have one then go with the 357. The 357 has so many choices of rounds and you can download with 38s at the range. I have a ruger sp101 snubbie spurless that I carry as an ankle gun or when I am out hiking in the woods. When out in the woods I carry it with a shotshell in the 1st chamber for snakes, then 2 357 hollow points for the next two rounds then the last 2 are 357 round nose. The hollow points are great for stopping the 2 leg animals and the round nose are used for deeper penetration for much larger 4 leg animal that have a dense coat with lots of fat underneath. Then the speed loader is filled with 357 hollow points.Also firing a 357magnum round in a confined space is like setting off a flash bang grenade. I hope this gives some more info to make your choice

[Dirty Bob]

I like both, but either one would be a good choice.

The .357 offers cheaper practice, via cheap components and .38 Special ammo. I would use .38+P for defense, in an indoor situation.

The .45 offers good stopping power in just about any premium (Gold Dot, Hydrashock, etc.) hollow point loading.

I would choose (and have chosen) a .45 ACP revolver, but I reload, so the ammo cost for practice is not such a factor. Neither of these is a bad choice.

There aren't too many times in life when you get a choice in which both options are great, so enjoy this one and pick the caliber that you like best!

Regards,
Dirty Bob

[Mike Grandin]

I've seen the video of Ofc. Coates shooting it's not something you forget. But wether the .45 is better than the .357 I can't say other than it could be determined by bullet type, weight etc. I've always preferred the .45 & that's what we carry on duty & I have a .357 as a back-up. So I'm convinced that wether one is better than another has to be taken on a case by case situation. But again if I had to chose I pick .45! O0

[eu_roca191]

In a revolver, for me I prefer the 357/38. :)

[handsfull]

hold on!! theres other calibers than a .45????? joking......I sold all my other handguns other than .45, because one cannot beat the trigger on a quality 1911 (even some ill-quality ones too). Also, it's easier to buy ammo for, it's easier to handle (it's larger in diameter), in general it's the most available/most 'common' handgun load (besides the 9mm)...IMHO

[giggles]

Hehe, I saw this TV show about "self defense handguns", where a woman was instructing some other women on how to shoot defensively, and a little about firearms in general because really, they had no clue.

So she was teaching them to shoot the 9mm short. She then holds up a round of 9mm short. Then she goes on to say that "this is the 9mm you hear about everywhere. It isn't really a lethal round" then she says "here is the american .45" and pulls out a 45 long colt, big and ugly lead bullet vs. 9mm short in maybe 100 grains FMJ, i dunno. So the morale of the story is...? You can always crap on a caliber by pulling out a larger (or smaller) caliber?

I like the .45 ACP though, if you're gonna defend yourself and need to stop someone fast, then that's what you need. If you are going to hunt people with a suppressor though... a smaller (9mm?) caliber is just as good or better, all depends on what you think you are gonna do. Of course the .45 won't break a vest but it will break the wearers chest... :cool: Don't see many thugs running around with plates in their vests. Other than that it is easier to shoot through windshields and barriers with, because you don't have to compensate up/down when shooting through glass, as much as you do with a lighter faster round.
If the bullets won't bite, take a head shot or spray the cover while retreating and get out of there, because you brought a pistol to a war zone. (Of course you brought reloads.)

As for availability, take the opponents guns and ammo, the only viable method in the long run. Worried about the opponents guns not holding up? Take two or more of every caliber. :luck:

[man-in-black]

Hmmm...very interesting responses in this thread. While a newb on EDC, I am not new to this subject. I am a full-time firearms instructor and feel that I have a fair amount of expertise in this area. Clearly the woman on the TV show that was instructing had no clue.

First, I'm assuming that the woman was talking about the 9mm Parabellum or 9x19mm round. This is the most popular 9mm round. There is another variation on this called the 9mm Kurtz (the short), but it is no longer in widespread use. Georg Luger originally developed the 9mm parabellum to deliver ballistic characteristics similar to that of the .45 cal ACP by designing a cartridge with a bullet weight of 125 gr. and enough of a powder charge to deliver it at approximately 1100 fps. The ballistics compare favorably with the .45 ACP which typically uses a 230 gr. bullet traveling at approximately 850 fps. Both of these rounds are available in a "+P" configuration, giving velocities of approx. 50-75 fps faster. Higher velocity means less deflection when passing through solid objects and more energy delivered when hitting the target.

Now that we have the facts cleared up...here is the real point. Using a good defensive round (jacketed hollow point), that is delivered with accuracy to a point on the body that has important stuff (basically a good center mass shot or crainial-ocular shot), the difference between the popular calibers is negligible. Whether you shoot a 9mm, .38 special, .357 magnum, .40 S&W or .45 ACP, they will ALL provide adequate stopping power. The major difference is that most people can't place a solid hit on a target. I am not talking about people shooting from a known distance at a stationary target in a nice controlled range setting...I am talking about shooting at a moving target, while you are on the move and most likely getting shot at yourself. 99% percent of the people out there don't have that kind of training and all the square range shooting in the world won't help much when the "fertilizer hits the ventilator". This is why you read police accounts of 30 round exchanges of gunfire with no shots landing on anyone. Realistically speaking, most exchanges of gunfire occur at ranges of 5 yards or less. (Yes...I do mean 15 feet or less) At that range, if you land shots on target, they will have an effect, whether you are shooting a 9mm or a .45 ACP.

Now, I'm sure that some will argue with me on this point. People have been having 'religious' arguments over handgun calibers for as long as I have been in this business. I will agree that having a bigger bullet is always better, IF, and it is a big IF, the shooter can shoot the round accurately. If you can't hit the target, it doesn't matter how big the bullet is. I tell my students, "shoot the largest caliber that you can shoot accurately". That is something that will change over time as people develop their skills. Someone may start out shooting a 9mm and graduate up to a .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

Just a couple of final notes as I really didn't mean to write a book here...

First, if you intend to carry concealed or carry for personal defense, GET TRAINING FROM A COMPETENT INSTRUCTOR. Do not get 'Uncle Bob' or another friend or relative to teach you. 'Uncle Bob' may not know crap about the correct way to shoot a handgun in combat conditions. For good training resources in your area, check the NRA website or PM me telling me where you live. If you are in the US, I can probably point you in the right direction.

Second, since I saw a bunch of discussion about .45 Long Colt, PLEASE don't carry a single action revolver for personal defense. Only use double action revolvers or carry a semi-auto. Single action revolvers can be fired with very little trigger pressure once the hammer is cocked. With a light trigger press under extreme stress, you may fire the gun when you really don't want to, resulting in injury, property damage or death that you really didn't want to cause. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Anyone wanting more amplification, let me know...

Cheers,

Doug

[Codeman]

:welcome: to EDCF, Doug!

I've actually heard .380 referred to as a 9mm short, but I've also heard some IPSC 38 Super (9x21) shooters refer to 9x19 as 9mm short. :shrug:

I've got a feeling we're just as likely to have consistent cartridge names as we are to settle the .45 .357/.380/9xwhatever debate.

One thing that many people know intuitively, but hardly ever bring up in such debates, is that a bullet's performance in isolation doesn't have a lot of meaning in the real world. It can give the illusion of being useful for comparisons, but that still doesn't have much meaning. The firearm used, the user's training, the environment, etc, all play a huge role. In fact, those variables have a far greater impact on usefulness than the caliber. A trained shooter used to actual events is far more prepared with a cheap .22 snubnose than someone with a tack driver in any caliber who has never trained with it.

When it comes down to it, the moment a person is faced with the need for self-defense, it really doesn't matter whether it's a .22, .357, 9mm, .45, or .500S&W. That person is going to rely on whatever they have. Hopefully it's a reliable gun in whatever caliber that they are comfortable and proficient with, and can afford to practice with regularly.

[mpi]

357 and .45 are both good choices for a handgun round, i agree on the get training part.........training is really more important than caliber.

The 9mm short, .380, 9mm kurtz and 9mm corto are the exact same round. kurtz and corto mean short in German and Spanish respectively. And even though i prefer 9mm para or 11.5mm [.45 acp] i most often carry a Keltec p3at as i work as an investigator and more often my survival counts on stealth and deception than firepower, and my p3at is supremely concealable.

[giggles]

Hmmm... I do not think your logic is correct, man-in-black.

When you are an unexperinced shooter, the .45 is what you want, because you are NOT going to shoot at the "bullseye" parts of a person, you want your first bullet to cause a large wound and shock in the opponent, first you point, then you shoot, but in the heat of battle your accuracy decreases, that is NOT where you want a small caliber to further complicate things. The Israelis know this and are now giving their people .45's for personal protection instead of 9mm which they previously did, because they know it is a better stopper and better in unskilled hands.


EDIT: I am also wondering... How could Luger mimic the .45 when the 9mm is actually OLDER than the .45? It would seem that you in fact just turned around every fact about handguns and handgun calibers/physics known and accepted as truth.


Just for accuracy, the woman I was talking about, was talking about the .45 "LONG COLT" as I said, and here are its measurements:
Case type Rimmed, straight
Bullet diameter .454 (lead), .451 (jacketed)
Neck diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
Base diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
Rim diameter .512 in (13.0 mm)
Rim thickness .060 in (1.5 mm)
Case length 1.285 in (32.6 mm)
Overall length 1.600 in (40.6 mm)

and also the 9mm short/kurz with these measurements: 9mmx17mm.

[man-in-black]

Giggles,

I appreciate your points...and I am not trying to get into a contest with you here...but please let me reiterate a few of my original comments and supply the background data for them. The development of the 9mm and .45 ACP were happening at almost the same time. I submit that two different approaches were being taken by two different developers. I would also submit that both developers were probably well aware of the others work considering they were contemporaries. Please forgive the fact that I 'edited' out a lot of the historical detail from my original post in the interest of brevity and lack of relevance to the specific question that was being asked.

Georg Luger designed the 9x19 with the idea of a high velocity bullet of smaller size to achieve greater penetration at the expense of permanent wound cavity diameter. John Browning was designing a larger bullet that traveled at a slower speed providing a larger permanent wound cavity diameter but at the expense of penetration. Even the most 'die hard' .45 ACP advocate admit this fact.

Please note the specific conclusion of the original testing done of the .45 ACP cartridge in 1904. They stated, "the Board was of the opinion that a bullet, which will have the shock effect and stopping effect at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver, should have a caliber not less than .45". But they also said, "...soldiers armed with pistols or revolvers should be drilled unremittingly in the accuracy of fire" because most of the human body offered "no hope of stopping an adversary by shock or other immediate results when hit."

This has been borne out time and time again. The key thing is to be able to accurately deliver fire. In over 20 years of handgun instruction, I have seen it hundreds of times. People try to shoot larger calibers that they cannot be accurate with. They cannot accurately deliver fire and without that accuracy, they will not stop a threat with a handgun. NO pistol caliber in a peripheral hit is going to deliver enough energy to completely stop a threat, unless we consider the exceptions of a headshot or a shot severing the spinal cord (there's that accuracy thing again...). For the most part there are no one shot stops with a pistol.

I probably should have known better than to respond to this post since no amount of logic or reason seems to change the mind of people who have 'decided' that the only caliber is .45 ACP.

In terms of the history, I have quoted two sources below that I consider to be accurate. Wikipedia is not, at least regarding the date of origin of the .45 ACP round as they state the round was developed in 1905. If you do consider Wikipedia to be an authoritative source, please note the following on the 'performance' of the .45 ACP round in comparison to others:

"Even in its non-expanding full metal jacket (FMJ) version, the .45 ACP cartridge has a reputation for effectiveness against human targets because its large diameter creates a deep and substantial permanent wound channel, although some writers, such as the published work of Marshall and Sanow, have cast the reputation of .45 ACP being the "best" at this task into doubt. Marshall & Sanow's work, while receiving heavy criticism from Dr. Fackler, still show the .45 ACP, loaded with the best hollowpoint bullets, to be a "one shot kill", somewhat better than the 9mm Luger, equal with the .40 S&W, and only a few percentage points behind the "King" of the Marshall and Sanow study - the .357 Magnum. It does not, however, match up to the 9mm Luger, the .40 S&W or the .357 Magnum without the best hollowpoint bullets. The .45 ACP averages 78.5% "one shot kill" while the 9mm Luger averages 87%, the .357 Magnum averages 89.5% with the .40 S&W on top with 91.5% average "one shot kill". The .45 ACP remains one of the top handgun cartridges for stopping power."

As you can see, there is substantial disagreement on the 'stopping power' of the various calibers.

I stand by my original recommendation, shoot the largest caliber you can shoot well. I would also suggest that folks consider the 'pucker factor' that occurs during a 'real' gunfight vs. square range drills. If you are a very accurate shooter, you shots will be 'less accurate' during a gunfight when someone is shooting back at you. If you are inaccurate to begin with, it doesn't matter how 'big' your bullet is...you aren't going to hit your target anyway.

This is probably my last post on this subject...so anyone that wishes to have the last word is welcome to it. :brickwall:

Doug

Historical Info:


Quoting Lew Curtis of the International Ammunition Association here:

"Origin of the 9mm Parabellum Cartridge
Georg Luger originally developed the 9mm Parabellum cartridge, at the German company Deutschen Waffen-und Munitionsfabriken (DWM). In early 1902, Georg Luger, through Vickers Limited offered a 9mm version of his pistol to the British Small Arms Committee. In mid-1903, three Luger prototype pistols in 9mm were delivered to the US Army for testing at Springfield Arsenal. These are the first pistols known to be chambered for the 9mm Parabellum cartridge. An additional 50 pistols in 9mm, along with 25,000 rounds of ammunition, were provided the US Army for testing in April 1904."

Information on the introduction of the .45 caliber ACP round: taken from http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/45acp.htm

John Browning is credited with having designed the .45 ACP cartridge. Browning's .45 ACP was built specifically for the pistol that many of us regard as one of the greatest pistol designs ever, the M1911. However, I'm not at all sure that the M1911 wouldn't have been chambered for .38 Super had Browning been left to his own devices.

The man who pushed the Army into adopting the .45 caliber cartridge was Gen. John T. Thompson, the father of the Thompson submachine gun and a member of the Army Ordnance Board during the time that the M1911 pistol was being developed by John Browning and Colt. After the disastrous showing of the Army's .38 Long Colt pistols in the Philippines, Gen. Thompson was committed to the idea that the Army should be packing a real man-stopper in its handguns, a big .45 caliber bullet.

It was the cartridge tests conducted by Thompson and Major Louis Anatole LaGarde of the Medical Corps in 1904 at the Nelson Morris Company Union Stockyards in Chicago that resulted in the adoption of the .45 caliber as the official U.S. Army handgun cartridge. They tested various calibers on live cattle, deer, and human cadavers to determine the best load. From these tests it was determined that the .45 was the most effective cartridge for a handgun, but with reservations. In their report, they state:

"the Board was of the opinion that a bullet, which will have the shock effect and stopping effect at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver, should have a caliber not less than .45". But they also said, "...soldiers armed with pistols or revolvers should be drilled unremittingly in the accuracy of fire" because most of the human body offered "no hope of stopping an adversary by shock or other immediate results when hit."

[Pantex]

The better one is the one """you""" can make hits in the A-Zone with........not me or other posters here who can or can't. I'd rather be missed with a ______ than hit with a ______(fill in the blanks).

[MattW]

Wow, when you call out the gun nuts, there is certainly no shortage. Not that you need one more, but here is my .02. For an auto, id definitely go with a 1911 .45. Revolver, .357. If your house has other occupants, or you have close neighbors, you want to be careful with the .357... it'll go through a lot of drywall and 2x4 before stopping.

Consider a pump shotgun in that case. usually the sound of the first shell being racked into battery is enough to send all but the most seasoned criminals in search of an easier target.

I had a friend who had a legitimate home defense concern. For him I recommended cans of bear spray placed strategically around the house, and even outside. That way, if you walk in and the perp is already close to your family, you can spray the whole lot of them, and sort out the good guys from the bad guys later... Plus, he'd never handled a gun before. :(

[MattW]

...and Good God, Man, whatever you do, buy quality and test the heck out of it. If it is not reliable, return it, trade it, trash it, give it to your mother-in-law or whatever, but get a different one.

In reading some of the previous posts, I'm a little bit surprised in the choices of handguns, caliber aside, for some of the guys that may very well need them to save their lives. When you pull that trigger and hear click instead of bang, you'll be wondering what you did with that $500 you saved buying a cheaper gun.

Don't be mislead into believing a revolver is a "sure thing". I just had to send one back to the manufacturer for light hammer strikes that were too light to fire the primer. That was actually the second revolver I've had to return to the same manufacturer. I recon I've bought my last from them.

[giggles]

Heheh, someone is selling a used Glock 21 (.45) for 450$, not very used. Would you buy it, or is it a sure candidate to go kboom in your hands/face?

They also have a H&K Model 4 in 7.65 :shocked: for the same price, also slightly used.


Heheheheh :) It sounds cheap, but I could also get a brand new .40 walther P99 military for 739$. What's the kboom rate on those in that caliber?


OoooOoOOOo.... walther P88 for 600$, never used... but I can't have it cause it's 2 mm too long.

[Slugger]

It's a tool like any other. Depends on your goal. If going after 4 legged critters . . . 357 gets the nod. If going after 2 legged varmits . . . I'd stick with the .45acp. I'm partial to that flying ashtray. Delivers a lot of energy without as much over penetration that could be a problem.

Slugger

[temujin]

Don't be mislead into believing a revolver is a "sure thing". I just had to send one back to the manufacturer for light hammer strikes that were too light to fire the primer. That was actually the second revolver I've had to return to the same manufacturer. I recon I've bought my last from them.


Nothing is a sure thing except for failure. I follow Massad Ayoob's rule of not trusting a gun/ammo combo without having run at least 200 consecutive rounds without malfunction. This is part of why I have and use so few guns. Doing this with factory ammunition is expensive. But my hide is worth it.



For an auto, id definitely go with a 1911 .45. Revolver, .357. If your house has other occupants, or you have close neighbors, you want to be careful with the .357... it'll go through a lot of drywall and 2x4 before stopping.


So will the .45. You ought to be careful with any gun.



I had a friend who had a legitimate home defense concern. For him I recommended cans of bear spray placed strategically around the house, and even outside. That way, if you walk in and the perp is already close to your family, you can spray the whole lot of them, and sort out the good guys from the bad guys later...

Interesting strategy. Myself, I would not leave weapons lying about. Even nonlethal weapons such as OC spray. Have you tested this tactic to see whether the spray would affect the sprayer? If the possibility of coming home to a stranger inside was a real possibility, I would have the weapon on my person beforehand rather than having the weapons closer to the intruder. Just my thought. YMMV.

[elsilrac1]

I am partial to carrying the .45. I carried one in the military, and own a milspec springfield. My favorite.

[HaroldB]

The answer is the one you're comfortable and most accurate with. :-X

For me it's .357 Sig Double-Tap ammo in my P226R-DAK :roof:

[hso]

The best gun for the individual, and therefore the best ammunition, has more to do with what fits the individual instead of what fits someone else. Find what fits and you will be more accurate. Find what the most powerful ammunition you can shoot comfortably out of that type of handgun in training and you've found the combination. If it's a .45 or a .357 or a 9mm, a revolver or semiauto, don't let anyone bully you into picking something you can't hit with.

We've trained new shooters to make multiple hits rapidly at self defense distances in just two days. They pick up this skill much quicker if they're shooting what fits them. If they're not, they may never be able to hit quickly and accurately.

[banditti]

My .02, but 10mm is my bag

[giggles]

Someone in this forum said something rather interesting in some thread, but I can't remember which one, but they said it wasn't about the size of the bullet, but about the shape of the bullet.

This was very inspiring, and I will be looking into a .223 rifle with alternating HP and AP ammo, or separate HP and AP mags.

Man, my brother just built his new 3000$ PC, and after playing Crysis on it all night I am all about small caliber weapons with illumination, silencing and aiming scope options and 16" barrels plus specialized ammunition. :woohoo:
I also started thinking after an IPSC match today, that maybe service pistols should go scoped, maybe with some kind of flip-down holographic sight, and ofcource HOT light rounds and low muzzle flip engineered weapons. It seems that the israelis with their Tavor bullpup rifle (fixed holographic sight made part of the gun body itself) has taken the competition weapon and ruggedized it for military use, without sacrificing any of the advantages taken from competition shooting.

[HaroldB]

In that case, why don't you use a Barrett 50 BMG and have BIG+fast ?! :P :lolhammer:

[giggles]

In that case, why don't you use a Barrett 50 BMG and have BIG+fast ?! :P :lolhammer:


who?

[Codeman]

who?


Barrett Rifles (http://www.barrettrifles.com/)

[HaroldB]

I used a Model 95 at work years ago, and used an RCBS press (with extension) to reload.

AWESOME weapons platform :roof:

Just don't stand beside it when someone else fires one :(

[handsfull]

There's another caliber other than a .45??? I have to agree with matt w.....the shotgun is the way to go, if they hear the round getting chambered and don't run....000 buck is an ideal in house round, and it's devastating.

[HaroldB]

I agree that the shotgun is the way to go for standing your ground in a "Safe Room", but if you need to go "room to room" it's too long.

A BadGuy can easily grab the barrel and twist it out of your hands. A pistol, then is the best choice. Whatever you hit best with and can afford to practice with :highfive:

[temujin]

:topic:

[giggles]

Agreed, long guns are more for the advanced room clearer, but done properly you wouldn't stick the barrel anywhere that a BG can grab it, like inside door frames before you can see inside, and you "fan" the room, preferrably throwing a flashbang in first though, but they don't let people have them privately :(
The pistol is easier to handle though but it can still be grabbed, so weapon retention must be practiced till the gun is part of your body.

BUT, people can shoot at you through your own doors and walls, so yeah it's a raw deal. Better to just have all the mechanical security in place so that nobody can get in without you being alerted and getting to the place where they try to break in, to fend them off there instead. I'm talking hooked locking bar on the main doorlock, plus a hooked or straight twist lock on top of the doorframe, on the hinge side and on the bottom door frame, hooked windowlocks with one or two side windowlocks and laminated window glass and any other glass. Plus a simple and extremely loud battery powered alarm box on your door, with a string and a plug that pops out and is connected to the door handle so that when it is armed, it pops out of the alarm if anyone tries the door handle, and the alarm goes off VERY loudly. Doesn't take a lot. :luck:

[Lugsalot]

Folks,

Though this thread is very old and the OP is no longer an active member, the topic is still a comparison of the .357 Magnum and .45 ACP cartridges in a home-defense role.

We do not discourage the expression of ideas, but if you wish to discuss safe-rooms, room-clearing or other defensive weapons and tactics not mentioned by the OP, please do so in another thread.

Thanks.

--Lugsalot :mm:

[wutzu]

As for the penetration issue, there are several frangible-type rounds available for both .357 and .45 ACP, and by frangible, it refers to a type of bullet that when it enters the target, it opens, much like a hollowpoint, and releases a small load of pellets, kind of like a mini-shotgun, and transfers a great deal of energy into the target. Best of all, in a home defense situation, if a miss occurs the bullet still comes apart if you hit a wall for instance, thus reducing the harm to whomever is on the other side of that wall. Two manufacturers off the top of my head are Glaser and Mag Safe, and I could be wrong, but Cor-Bon might make something similer.


I would NOT trust my life, or the lives of family/friends to Glaser Safety Slugs, or the equivalent. The FBI recommends 12 inches of penetration to reliably cause damage to vital organs (i.e. bad-angle shots where you have to shoot through the bad guy's arm to get to his vitals). Safety Slugs WILL NOT penetrate sufficiently (in Box 'O Truth #23 (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm) they estimate the penetration at 3-4" based on water tests) As for Penetration through walls, 9mm Safety Slugs penetrated through 6 sheets of drywall before stopping (Equivalent to 3 interior walls.) Any projectile that can stop or kill a person can penetrate a wall.

As to the two cartridges at hand: 357 and 45 will both kill someone dead as hell. A revolver seems like a liability to me though, especially in a rimless cartridge like 45. I say go with a high-capacity semi-auto in .45, or really any cartridge 9mm and up.

[ballistic]

I would NOT trust my life, or the lives of family/friends to Glaser Safety Slugs, or the equivalent. The FBI recommends 12 inches of penetration to reliably cause damage to vital organs (i.e. bad-angle shots where you have to shoot through the bad guy's arm to get to his vitals). Safety Slugs WILL NOT penetrate sufficiently (in Box 'O Truth #23 (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm) they estimate the penetration at 3-4" based on water tests) As for Penetration through walls, 9mm Safety Slugs penetrated through 6 sheets of drywall before stopping (Equivalent to 3 interior walls.) Any projectile that can stop or kill a person can penetrate a wall.

As to the two cartridges at hand: 357 and 45 will both kill someone dead as hell. A revolver seems like a liability to me though, especially in a rimless cartridge like 45. I say go with a high-capacity semi-auto in .45, or really any cartridge 9mm and up.


I know someone who was at the autopsy of a victim shot with a Glaser Safety Slug (Blue), and the results were absolutely devastating, with vital organs pulverized. They will do the job, but the problem with them is cost & being able to put enough rounds through your defensive pistol to know that they will function reliably.

As far as the penetration, shooting through water jugs and a box of sheets of dry wall do not accurately simulate human tissue or typical residential construction. They look cool for photo shoots and side by side comparisons, but other than that, they're not applicable to real-world scenarios IMHO. I've seen more than my share of defensive JHP rounds go through real walls (stud framed construction). The hollow point cavities tend to plug up with drywall and then perform similar to FMJ unless they hit something harder like a stud, nail, electrical gang box. Extrapolating human tissue penetration from water jugs is about as "junk science" as you can get. BTW, I've seen more bullets recovered from bodies than ballistic gelatin or water jugs, so I tend to trust those results more.

Back OT, either .357 or .45ACP with modern, quality defensive ammunition will do the job, provided the shooter does theirs (shot placement). It's mostly a matter of personal preference.

[58sniper]

I know someone who was at the autopsy of a victim shot with a Glaser Safety Slug (Blue), and the results were absolutely devastating, with vital organs pulverized. They will do the job, but the problem with them is cost & being able to put enough rounds through your defensive pistol to know that they will function reliably.

I would agree. With Corbon now owning Glaser, I'm sure those rounds will get even better. But I've seen them be very effective at tissue damage. But the ~1$ per round price tag can make for a short day at the range.

[marvinsson]

Neither is better, they're just different.

Learn to shoot what you have well, and either will serve you just fine.

Unless, of course you just want to buy another gun! ;)

[Lugsalot]

Welcome to EDCF, marvinsson! :highfive:

I like the way you think! ;D

[Button]

I would choose the 357 since it is a revolver. Most anyone can shoot a revolver and I know my wife has a difficult time with the slides on autos. Therefore, a revolver works for us.

[wmcamp0]

.45 it helped stopped the Nazis, and it sure as hell will put a hole in a burglar.

[Dirty Bob]

The funny thing is that the gun chosen has a lot more to do with the package being "easy to shoot" than the caliber.

Actually, I find a .45ACP revolver to be very easy to shoot -- much easier than, say, a Ruger GP100 or Service Six with full-power 125 grain JHP .357 Magnum ammo. Your mileage may vary, of course. The .45ACP is not a magnum caliber and has less muzzle blast. This could be a major factor if the gun were ever fired indoors.

Most people with .357s would probably be better served with .38+P loads that have much less recoil and muzzle blast and are easier for non-enthusiasts to shoot well. Either caliber could be a good choice, but we can easily think of gun/cartridge combinations that would be unsuitable for many people, such as a Scandium .357, fitted with skimpy wood grips and loaded with full-power .357 Magnum ammo. That would be painful to shoot!

Regards,
Dirty Bob

[SdPunk]

.45, nuff said!!!

[Sgt. LED]

Yo .357 magnum VS .45 ACP?
.45 all the way for speed, size, and comfortable shooting.
.45 VS .357 SIG?
Now that is a close race, not in balistics-in my heart.  I have to lean to .357 Sig honestly.  I have done some informal testing and have had better results with the Sig.  YRMV and to each their own.
Truly depends on how much penetration you need before the mushroom.

[wutzu]

I know someone who was at the autopsy of a victim shot with a Glaser Safety Slug (Blue), and the results were absolutely devastating, with vital organs pulverized. They will do the job, but the problem with them is cost & being able to put enough rounds through your defensive pistol to know that they will function reliably.

As far as the penetration, shooting through water jugs and a box of sheets of dry wall do not accurately simulate human tissue or typical residential construction. They look cool for photo shoots and side by side comparisons, but other than that, they're not applicable to real-world scenarios IMHO. I've seen more than my share of defensive JHP rounds go through real walls (stud framed construction). The hollow point cavities tend to plug up with drywall and then perform similar to FMJ unless they hit something harder like a stud, nail, electrical gang box. Extrapolating human tissue penetration from water jugs is about as "junk science" as you can get. BTW, I've seen more bullets recovered from bodies than ballistic gelatin or water jugs, so I tend to trust those results more.

Back OT, either .357 or .45ACP with modern, quality defensive ammunition will do the job, provided the shooter does theirs (shot placement). It's mostly a matter of personal preference.


I don't doubt that the Glasers have killed plenty, but I don't trust their ability to do so consistently from less than ideal angles (i.e. through-the-arm shots). Hit the bad guy while his body is bladed to you, and you've got 4+ inches of extra tissue between his organs and a round that's advertised as having shallow penetration. Plenty of people have died from 22lr, 25auto, 32auto, but that doesn't mean they should be go-to rounds when something goes bump in the night.

[bwaites]

I'll quote a very famous instructor and let you guys figure out who it was:

"Self defense rounds should start with 4 and, preferably, end with 5."

Bill

[Lugsalot]

I'll quote a very famous instructor and let you guys figure out who it was:

"Self defense rounds should start with 4 and, preferably, end with 5."

Bill


Clint Smith? :shrug:

[litework]

I'd go with the .45 just so I could buy a Smith and Wesson model 22 or 25. I've always preferred OD to velocity in something as ineffective as a handgun.

[filedog]

A hit with ANY of the "major" calibers, with modern (HP) ammo, is gonna hurt, A LOT. Get a first class handgun (doesn't have to cost a lot) and learn to shoot it well. I think a more important aspect is being willing to do what needs to be done, without hesitation.

[Dirty Bob]

filedog said:
...and learn to shoot it well

Best advice in the whole thread. Either caliber will do, if you will do.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

[JonSidneyB]

Clint Smith? :shrug:


Clint Smith is an instructor at Thunder Ranch.

In my opinion the answer to the question would be it just depends. I feel that both have advantages over each other and can think of situations where one might be a better choice than the other. Think of it as a vin diagram with lots of overlap.

[Lugsalot]

Oh, I know who Clint Smith is, I was just wondering if he was the one who said:



"Self defense rounds should start with 4 and, preferably, end with 5."


So who was it, bwaites? :popcorn:

[Diesel]

No, I believe it was Jeff Cooper (founder of Gunsite) that said it.

[flip]

Get one of each then shoot them both until YOU can decide which is better for YOU. By that time, you should be able to handle either one well.