Is a 9mm adequate...

[heathah]

...for EDC or self defense if necessary.

I have been contemplating on purchasing a new pistol and I've been thinking heavily about a 9mm but I'm not sure if it is the right size for what I need.

I mainly want it to do some plinking every once and a while and carry it for self defense occasionally.* I have a Browning Buckmark Bullseye and a Ruger Single Six .22 LR/.22 Mag. revolver that I use for sport shooting.* I'd really like to get one that I can plink with and also carry for self defense.* The Browning and Ruger are way too large for EDC in my opinion. Size matters as I would like to keep it in my bag but also carry it on my person if I wanted, maybe in a pocket or elsewhere.

Basically, I want a small pistol that I can shoot and practice with often that won't break my wallet but also still serve adequately for self defense if I ever need it, God forbid.

Any suggestions?* *:confused:

[Codeman]

IMO, during summer months when clothing won't clog a hollow point, I think a 9mm with at least +p ammo (I prefer Corbon's 115gr) is adequate.* During winter months, when a bullet may need to penetrate several layers of clothing, hollow points will get plugged up, preventing their maximum expansion and thus reducing their ability to stop an attack.* For winter, I only rely on a .45.* I learned about this years ago in an article by Masaad Ayoob, I think, which had some pictures of hollow points that had penetrated heavy and light clothing that was wrapped about ballistic gel.* Sure made the point in my mind. The heavy clothing effecively turned Corbon and HydraShok's into ball ammo. If you're stuck with ball ammo, the bigger the better.

[pipedreams]

Classic debate subject. I'll give you my short answer...Yes.

todd

[Desert-K9]

I completely agree with Codeman. *I read the same article quite a number of years back and switched to a .45. *That being said you should purchase a gun that size wise will fit you and your carry needs, and that you shoot well. *It has been said that the Glock 19 is a great all around defensive gun and I wouldn't disagree with that. *but single stack 45's, such as the Glock 36 are in the same size range and give you a bigger bullet. *I would say try and shoot a 45 and 9mm and decide which you like, all things being equal I would pick the 45. *Although I own several .40s and did carry them for awhile, I much prefer either the 9mm or 45 round. *I hate the old 9mm vs. 45 debate and don't think anything is wrong with carrying a 9mm, my wife carries a 9mm Glock, but there are benefits to the 45 particularly if you live in a cold weather or four seasons area. Hope this helped.

[Yooper]

9mm is most definitely adequate..

[fubar]

Yup.

9mm is cheap to use for plinking and practice.

In the terrible event it's used for self defense aim center mass and pull the trigger . And continue to do so until the threat is over. All the debate over "one shot stopping power" is sort of pointless if you have 13 first shots available.

But , having said that : every one eventually gets a .45

[heathah]

Yup.

9mm is cheap to use for plinking and practice.

In the terrible event it's used for self defense aim center mass and pull the trigger . And continue to do so until the threat is over. All the debate over "one shot stopping power" is sort of pointless if you have 13 first shots available.

But , having said that : every one eventually gets a .45


So, what you're saying is that I should get both a 9mm and a .45? ;D That's the solution I like! ;)

Seriously, though, thanks for the comments guys.

So, since a 9mm is adequate, what brand do you guys recommend? I like the quality and price of Ruger firearms but I'm sure there are other options worthy of consideration. I'm looking in the <$500 range if that helps.

[erh]

Yes it is; standard pressure 9mm is fine, and don't fire just
one round then stick your head up to see if it worked..!

[Glock19]

Of course 9mm is adequate with a modern hollow point bullet. It's also cheap to practice with. Shooting is a skill that must be practiced regularly to maintain/build profeciency. That's part of the reason I switched from .40S&W to 9mm. I had a Glock 27, fine gun but didn't care for the grip or the .40 in such a small gun. A bit snappy. Since I didn't enjoy shooting it I didn't practice much. So I was carrying a gun I didn't like all that much and wasn't maintaining my skills. Not a good self defense combo. Now that I have my Glock 19 I shoot MUCH more often, can shoot 3-400 rounds in a day no problem (I'd stop at no more than 100 with the 40), and more importantly am a much better shot than I used to be.

This isn't to say there's anything wrong with the .40 or the Glock 27, they just weren't the right choice for me.

[Yooper]

So, what you're saying is that I should get both a 9mm and a .45?* *;D* That's the solution I like!* *;)

Seriously, though, thanks for the comments guys.

So, since a 9mm is adequate, what brand do you guys recommend?* I like the quality and price of Ruger firearms but I'm sure there are other options worthy of consideration.* I'm looking in the <$500 range if that helps.


You've got the right attitude! In the <$500 range I like Glocks. Can't go wrong with a Ruger either. Try to demo a friend's or rental gun before you buy if you can and then get what's most comfortable for you...

My favorite 9mm is the H&K P7M8 but you're looking at more than twice your budget for that...

http://www.hkp7.com/graphics/p7m8blue.jpg

[erh]

You've got the right attitude! In the <$500 range I like Glocks. Can't go wrong with a Ruger either. Try to demo a friend's or rental gun before you buy if you can and then get what's most comfortable for you...

My favorite 9mm is the H&K P7M8 but you're looking at more than twice your budget for that...

http://www.hkp7.com/graphics/p7m8blue.jpg


(IMHO) <$500.00 - Sig - ANY Grade 1 CPO...

Eric :)

[uspopo]

Uuuuummmm....yes!!

[Jim101]

Look at the new Kel-Tec 9mm, as small as their .380 and can be found at Gun Shows for ~$250...I carry (in summer) either the Kel-Tec .32 with Win Silvertips or the NAA Mini-Mag.......

Jim

[chevrofreak]

The fact of the matter is that with proper ammo selection a 9mm has just as much horsepower as most .40S&W and .45ACP loads, in a smaller package.

I look at it this way, which would you rather have, a supercharged 350 small block putting out 700hp, or a naturaly aspirated 454 big block making the same power? In reality, they both do the same thing, but the small block does it in a more compact package.

[jeffm]

Thankfully I have no firsthand experience, but I'd say that 9mm is good enough.

Whatever you get, shoot with it a lot. Take training classes. Then shoot some more.

Almost anything will work if you can make hits with it.

I personaly like .40s&w, mostly because that's what I've shot the most and I'm comfortable with it. I know that I can hit jackrabits with a Glock 22 at 30-40 meters. I'm looking to eventualy get a Glock 23 and an additional aftermarket 9mm barrel for practice (added practice bonus is that you can shoot 9mm from the .40 mags and get weird malfuncions about 5-10% of the time to practice clearing them).

Just my $.02

Jeff

[Jay]

As I do regularly, I'll suggest you disregard caliber at first. Handle as many firearms as you can. A few of them will "feel right". Pursue those, because if it doesn't feel right in your hands, you won't shoot it enough to become proficient with it. Chances are, that when you find a few that you like, the manufacturer will make it in multiple calibers. THEN begin the caliber debates...... a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .45......;D

[PX]

Look at the new Kel-Tec 9mm, as small as their .380 and can be found at Gun Shows for ~$250...I carry (in summer) either the Kel-Tec .32 with Win Silvertips or the NAA Mini-Mag.......

Jim


Yep....
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_5034.jpg

Best Wishes,
JP

[Bravo 25]

The fact of the matter is that with proper ammo selection a 9mm has just as much horsepower as most .40S&W and .45ACP loads, in a smaller package.

I would have to disagree here. A .50 cal will split a boulder at 300 yards. A 9mm won't.




As I do regularly, I'll suggest you disregard caliber at first. Handle as many firearms as you can. A few of them will "feel right". Pursue those, because if it doesn't feel right in your hands, you won't shoot it enough to become proficient with it. Chances are, that when you find a few that you like, the manufacturer will make it in multiple calibers. THEN begin the caliber debates......* a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .45......;D


There is a lot of wisdom here, but keep in mind if we were throwing rocks, I would want to throw one the size of a baseball, and not a pebble.

[Jim101]

PX,

What do you think of the 9mm KT?

Jim

[chevrofreak]

I would have to disagree here. A .50 cal will split a boulder at 300 yards. A 9mm won't.

What the hell does a .50 have to do with 9mm .40S&W and .45ACP?* Did you actually read what I said?

[Bravo 25]

Yes I did read it, and you elude to the fact that a smaller caliber has just as much horsepower as a larger one. This is not true. Although the 9mm travels faster than the .45, and about the same as a .40 the bullet mass does not compensate for the speed.

Using you anology if you put both those engines in the same vehicle of the same weight, you could make that comparrison. but when you talk about putting a small block into a camaro, and the big block into a fully loaded truck the numbers fall apart.

Mss, and foot pounds of kinectic energy have a lot to do with projecticle effeciency. Don't get me wrong, I don't subscribe to the idea that a .45 will knock you backwards 30 feet, it you get hit in the little finger, but the rock throwing comparison would be more accurate. Which is likely to do more damage.

Many studies, and comparrisons have been done on one stop shot power, and all thngs being equal the bigger calibers win out. However as was stated above " a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .45"

[TKC]

Yes, 9mm is adequate! Have you looked at any Kahr Arms guns? I love mine!! I have had Glocks, but sold them all off. They ARE excellent guns, but so chunky/ blocky. Seriously check ouut Kahr Arms!!

[chevrofreak]

Yes I did read it, and you elude to the fact that a smaller caliber has just as much horsepower as a larger one. This is not true. Although the 9mm travels faster than the .45, and about the same as a .40 the bullet mass does not compensate for the speed.

Using you anology if you put both those engines in the same vehicle of the same weight, you could make that comparrison. but when you talk about putting a small block into a camaro, and the big block into a fully loaded truck the numbers fall apart.

Mss, and foot pounds of kinectic energy have a lot to do with projecticle effeciency. Don't get me wrong, I don't subscribe to the idea that a .45 will knock you backwards 30 feet, it you get hit in the little finger, but the rock throwing comparison would be more accurate. Which is likely to do more damage.

Many studies, and comparrisons have been done on one stop shot power, and all thngs being equal the bigger calibers win out. However as was stated above " a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .45"


If you look up the numbers for popular self defense cartridges you'll see that 9mm .40 and .45 all have very similar amounts of foot pounds. Some of the new stuff from Double Tap is even making well over 500 ft-lbs.

Here are some numbers from Double Tap for their extra hot ammo.

Caliber : 9mm

Bullet : Gold Dot JHP

Ballistics : 115gr @ 1415fps / 511ft. lbs. from a G17.


511 ft-lbs beats most commercial .40 and .45ACP loads, excluding Double Tap themselves.

Compare that energy to some of the popular carry rounds and it shows that 9mm can equal them for energy.

Federal Premium 40 S&W 155gr Hydra-Shok, Velocity 1140 fps, Energy 445 ft lbs

Winchester Supreme 40 S&W 165gr SXT, Velocity 1130 fps, Energy 468 ft lbs

Federal Premium 45 Auto 230gr Hydra-Shok, Velocity 850 fps, Energy 370 ft lbs

Hornady TAP 45 Auto +P, 230gr TAP FPD, Velocity 950 fps, Energy 461 ft lbs

Federal Premium 45 Auto 165gr Hydra-Shok, Velocity 1060 fps, Energy 410 ft lbs


Now, lets compare that to some typical (non double tap) 9mm loadings

Winchester Super-X 9mm Luger 115gr Silvertip, Velocity 1225 fps, Energy 383 ft lbs

Winchester Supreme, Personal Protection, 9mm Luger, 147gr SXT, Velocity 990 fps Energy 320 ft lbs Non-Corrosive

Federal Premium 9mm Luger 135gr Hydra-Shok Personal Defense, Velocity 1050 fps, Energy 330 ft lbs



A hot 9mm can easily beat a standard .45ACP for energy, but a hot .45ACP can also beat a hot 9mm. It all comes right back ro ammo selection. At this point, the 127gr +P+ Winchester Ranger T will equal the best .40S&W and .45ACP rounds for "stopping power" and it is largely due to bullet design.

[Jim101]

Two police officers in the Dallas area were killed with a .22, as you know, once a .22 enters the body it "bounces" around..
In the summer here I carry either a .22 mini-mag or KT .32..

Jim

[cosine]

Ah, the old "9 vs. .45 debate..." I'm surprised it took so long for one to show up here. ;)

[xDANx]

Try these, they will even stop someone with a kevlar vest.* ;)

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=48356166

and DONT MISS!

[Desertrat1]

I EDC a Glock 17 with Speer gold dots. I train two to the center mass one to the forehead, I think that will do.

[russtang]

Ah, the old "9 vs. .45 debate..." I'm surprised it took so long for one to show up here.* ;)

I have read thousands of 9mm vs .45 posts. and my opinion has never changed.
Shoot what you are comfortable with and practice with what you carry.

[kamkazmoto]

Where is the Dead Horse character. I believe a 9mm is adequate but I would rather carry a .40s&w or a .45 acp.

[Yablanowitz]

A 9mm firearm you have with you is far more effective than a .45 ACP in your safe at home. I have a KelTec P11 9mm that rides pretty much everywhere with me. Compact, light, handy and accurate enough at the range it is likely to be used. Is it my favorite? Hardly. That honor goes to my old pre-Clinton Glock 20. There is just something about having 18 full power 10mm Silvertips in hand that makes me feel better about walking in my neighborhood after dark. ;D For lighter clothing, the Glock 29 gets the nod, also in 10mm, since it can use the same spare mags. But the next step down (and that is as far down as I am willing to go) is the KelTec 9mm. Just my 2 cents.

[Tom Anderson]

A 9mm should work fine.

One word of advice..... don't limit your decision with a pricetag. Get the one that is easy to carry, easy to operate, and is accurate in your hands.

If the time would ever come when you needed to defend yourself, the $ you saved by buying the wrong pistol won't matter.

[kamkazmoto]

There is nothing wrong with a 9mm but you have to be proficient with it. That means practice :knuppel2: , practice :knuppel2: and more practice :knuppel2:.

[copykat]

Ah, the old "9 vs. .45 debate..." I'm surprised it took so long for one to show up here. ;)

LOL, I'm in!
I'm not a 9mm fan.
all that 2 in the heart one in head stuff cracks me up BUT
I do think the .45 takes more experience to operate effectively
so i might go with the flow on this one but remember,
One well placed shot Beats 3 misses in any caliber!

[Big Bob]

Nothing against 9 mm Glocks guys, but I still prefer my big ole Beretta 92F. That being said, if I suspected that someone was in the house that shouldn't be there, it would be my Colt Combat Elite that would be in my hand during the search.

[nontypical]

So, what you're saying is that I should get both a 9mm and a .45?* *;D* That's the solution I like!* *;)

Seriously, though, thanks for the comments guys.

So, since a 9mm is adequate, what brand do you guys recommend?* I like the quality and price of Ruger firearms but I'm sure there are other options worthy of consideration.* I'm looking in the <$500 range if that helps.


You might want to look at the new Kel Tec single stack 9 coming out. The Bersa 9 compact or the SA-XD compact 9. All of these will go for $300 to under $500.

[nontypical]

...for EDC or self defense if necessary.

I have been contemplating on purchasing a new pistol and I've been thinking heavily about a 9mm but I'm not sure if it is the right size for what I need.

I mainly want it to do some plinking every once and a while and carry it for self defense occasionally.* I have a Browning Buckmark Bullseye and a Ruger Single Six .22 LR/.22 Mag. revolver that I use for sport shooting.* I'd really like to get one that I can plink with and also carry for self defense.* The Browning and Ruger are way too large for EDC in my opinion.* Size matters as I would like to keep it in my bag but also carry it on my person if I wanted, maybe in a pocket or elsewhere.

Basically, I want a small pistol that I can shoot and practice with often that won't break my wallet but also still serve adequately for self defense if I ever need it, God forbid.

Any suggestions?* *:confused:


Another option you might look at is the Bersa 380. Cost is from $200 to $250. They are extremely reliable. They are not finiky about ammo type. Relatively small but not petite (8 round mags). And they are very accurate. I've got around 1500 rounds thru mine without a failure. The Cor-Bon dpx 380 ammo ballistics is impressive (found online under 380 ballistics).
Just a thought.

[0dBm]

I've fired tens of thousands of rounds of all kinds of calibers through many hand and shoulder weapons, however, I have never shot any living thing.

I operate under the foregoing conclusion that, for handguns, the smaller the caliber, the more projectiles I will need to stop a living creature, whether 2 or 4-legged, weighing above 50lbs.

I have read many pubilcations on this matter.* One of the most interesting is a book by Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow that evaluated the results of one shot stops of various calibers from a handguns.

I also remember what 2 individuals told me about handguns.* "Shoot them until they stop moving; regardless of the caliber."

Both of these individuals are retired Naval Special Warfare Operators (NavSpecWarOps); also known as Navy SEALs.

[fubar]

I have no interest in "One Shot Stops."

Anybody here carry their pistol with ONE bullet in it ? I don't.

What's the "stopping power" of 22LR fired from a Walther p22 ? No , not one , but - 10 shots COM , or the "One Shot Stopping power " of 13 9mm HP's fired in succession ?

Anyway , now that it's summer here in Boston I am carrying neither 9mm or .45. I just switched over to a scandium/titanium S&W hammerless .38+P.

How many times will that knock someone down after 5 rounds in rapid order?

[Lee1959]

I always consider it this way, if they are not down and dead by the time my weapon runs dry, no matter what I am carrying, they will at the very least be slowed down enough to where I can beat them with my walking stick or fliet them with my knife...

[copykat]

If I were forced to shoot anyone, I would prefer they were down and dead in one shot. especially if they were huge and coming at me with a knife from 5 feet away. More than than that leaves room for me to be dead and we just can't have that.
That said I often carry a very short barroled .22LR which I know would probably not knock anyone down unless i got extremely lucky.
It might change someones mind though. Larger guns are uncomfortable to carry and fortunatly for me our local law enforcement does a good job of keeping the riff-raff at bay but everyonce in a while one slips through the cracks and someone gets hurt so when i have the time I move up.
Is a 9mm adequate? i beleive so. but if i'm going to carry a gun that size i prefer more knock down power for a quicker resolution to the problem.

[fubar]

I too would prefer to make it happen all at once. But planning on being lucky is a sloppy idea , no offense. I am sure you actually train to hit your targets in places that will "score" high , so to speak.

[copykat]

I too would prefer to make it happen all at once. But planning on being lucky is a sloppy idea , no offense. I am sure you actually train to hit your targets in places that will "score" high , so to speak.



None taken. I train to hit where i point the gun, which is the X-ring. I shoot bulleye matches and falling plate matches. When i first started in falling plates, i used a 357 revolver (gp-100). i saw a guy with a semi clean a row of plates but missed the last one. Emptied the clip on the last plate. loaded up another clip and shot it so fast he never hit that plate. needless to say i beat him and it left an impression on me.
if you start shooting falling plates you realize soon, shooting fast does nothing but waste lead. You have to put in the years first, then you can be a speed demon. I agree, planning on being lucky is no way to go. Take your time and hit your target.

[ADBF]

In my personal opinion the caliber debate, though not meaningless, is less important than many other factors. First, pick a gun that is well designed, well built, reliable and accurate. Make sure you like it personally, as far as ergonomics and controls are concerned, etc. For instance, many people love the Glock pistols in many calibers and configurations. I've owned several, but hated them all. Didn't like owning them or shooting them, so I sold them. I absolutely love the Browning Hi-Power pistol and own two of them, both nines. This gun feels right in my hand. I like the way it handles and operates and I've become, if I don't say so myself, very competent with it. I can put a lot of bullets into a small area very quickly with this gun. It's reliable as hell, accurate and just feels good to shoot. It also carries and conceals well for me. But that's just me.

Some folks like the Colt-style .45's, some like Sigs, some like, well you name it. Find a gun that fits all the important criteria of good sturdy, reliable design, accuracy, ergonomically feels right for you, etc. and practice like hell with it. In my opinion it will hardly matter whether you have a nine a .40 or a .45. Do a lot of research. Read all you can about various handgun designs, strengths and weaknesses. Gun magazines, like Guns and Ammo, Handguns, etc. are good sources of information. Talk to as many folks who know guns as you can, including this forum. Go to gun stores and handle various handguns, talk to the clerks and owners, many are knowledgeable about the stuff they sell. Make an informed decision.

Nine versus .45 versus .40 will become less important to you, the more you know. IMHO. And one more thing. I've also owned three .45's over the years. I had a Colt Gold Cup, a Firestar in .45 caliber and a Kimber Custom Eclipse, which was a beautiful gun. The .45 just hurts my wrist too much to shoot and I didn't really want to practice with it,(insert wimp joke here...), but I'm knd of a small boned guy. Ya can't help genetics, I guess. So, even that had to be a factor for me. Otherwise, I might be a big .45 fan. The point there is, deal with the reality of who you are. Will a .45 actually work for me, given who I am?

[0dBm]

I have no interest in "One Shot Stops."

How many times will that knock someone down after 5 rounds in rapid order?


I have become quite interested in the fabled "one shot stop."* This is the one area that I cannot learn enough about because there is not much empirical data that is or can be published.

I have had formal training in both pistols and revolvers; how to disassemble, troubleshoot, repair, tune, and customize them.* I have been trained to recognize the many differerent types of modern cartridges, how to load them for various applications, test fire them in various medium, and chronograph them at various distances.

I have had military training on how to use firearms for a variety of applications; namely offensive and defensive.* I have competed in dozens of local-level shooting events.* *I have taught others of what I have learned.

I have not, however,been schooled in the effects of modern, lead based, firearm projectiles on living tissue.* I have read many publications on their effects, but have never been actually shown, in person, what those effects are other than creating a hole.

If there is a database that purports to evaluate and record results, however flawed those results are, of the effectiveness of one handgun cartridge over another, I want to be, at the least, familiar with what the study postulates.* I want to study it because I cannot, like most people, conduct my own trial studies.

If .45 and .40, ceterus paribus, is better at one shot stops, then I want the option to, at least, consider those bigger cartridges over the smaller.* Not that I will just carry one cartridge in my firearm, but rather that I will carry a magazine full of the more effective cartridges rather that the lesser effective ones.* After all, stopping a would-be bad guy from perpetrating a henious act is the reason to have a defensive weapon in the first place.*

[Toolboy]

FIgured I'd quit lurking and actually post something:

I've had quite a bit of handgun experience over the years with various guns and calibers and this is what I've learned:

Buy the gun that you will:
1. Carry.
2. Shoot regularly.

A gun of any caliber is useless if it is locked in a safe or sitting in a drawer. Also, a weapon is much less useful if it is rarely fired. Two personal examples: I have a Glock 17 that I rarely carry because I find it to be a bit too large for general concealed carry. I also have a S&W Scandium 357 mag that I like the size of, but shooting it is an exercise in pain due to the extremely light weight of the gun matched with high-recoil ammo. Now there are compromises for both guns- I could buy bigger pants so I could carry the glock IWB carry, and I could shoot the S&W with .38 ammo and larger grips to tame recoil.

What I end up most frequently using though is a glock 19. The gun seems to be a perfect size to carry for my body, the gun is tame to shoot and I shoot it fairly well.

Would I prefer a .45 caliber handgun? I probably would- but I can't really find too much wrong with the G19- and I do think it is sufficient to do its intended job.

[copykat]

I agree with ya toolboy, whats important is that its with you, not home in the safe because its to cumbersome to carry.
partly depends on your daily activitys and what you can get away with also.
if i were a forest ranger, i would be packing something larger. in an office setting, I would opt for very small.
I carry a .22 lr NAA mini but I have no illusions that it has any knock down power.
My father shot a paper target on a tree in the winter with a .32 and the bullet 'bounced" off the tree.
Balistically, a low power round but better than a knife in a fight.
is that glock 19 a 9mm? I don't know much about glocks. i know tey are SUPER popular and light weight but that safety on the trigger has me baffled. seems to me, a safety is there so if you accidentally hit the trigger, the gun won't fire.
Except on a glock, if you accidentally hit the trigger-you accidentally hit the safety and therefore negate its effectiveness as a saftety.
in that case why have a safety at all? If i could get past that trigger deal, i'd be a glock fan too.

[Jim101]

Copykat,

I carry an NAA 22 MiniMag, reason being here in Tx. with the temp. hitting 95 - 100 it's about all you can conceal. For driving and the winter I have at least a 9mm...

Jim

[jmateer]

Yes.

You can buy a 9mm cheaper than most ammo (= more practice)

and it all comes down to shot placement.

[jggonzalez]

Here's a pic of a Kahr MK9 like mine. Its small, at around 5.5" in length and 4" in height, but still capable of turning in tight groups at 50 feet or more. I got mine used, but in mint shape, for around $450. Check out some of the online gun auction sites. I'd also suggest checking out www.kahr.com, but ignore the retail prices. If you shop around you can get pretty good prices on their stuff. Good luck!

[Jim101]

Very.very nice gun......I have always liked that model..............

Jim

[0dBm]

I test fired the polymer-framed version. It has a much sharper recoil signature. I prefer the steel-framed version and woud have bought one except that I already own the K9.

[Roadkill Bill]

Is the 9mm adequate? Sure. It just depends on how many times you can hit him with it. For that matter, so is a .22. Some one said they weren't interested in "one shot stops." I sure the hell am. In a real life situation you are not shooting at stationary targets. You might be moving, the bad guy might be moving, low light, scared as hell if he's shooting back, etc., etc., etc. You may shoot more than once, but you might only hit him once. If that's the case you want something that is going to do the most damage, make the biggest blood gushing hole possible, and end the encounter as quickly as possible.

I think it was the Illinois Hwy. Patrol that holds the record for hitting a guy 33 times with 9mm before he was stopped with a shotgun? Sure I know about "shot placement" so you don't need to go there, but I find it hard to believe that all 33 hits were somewhere other than the torso. Yes, he was on drugs. So might the guy that breaks into your home. Maybe not as hopped up as this guy was, but hard to stop none the less.

Who knows . . . maybe the bad guy will pose for you so can empty your magazine into him. Not likely.

A 9mm may be "adequate" but a .45 or a .357 is going to be a heck of a lot more adequate. Sometimes I even carry a .41 mag. Some folks might think I'm paranoid, but I plan to be an old paranoid.

[Southern Sunset]

Caliber controversy or design (revolver vs. semi-auto) aside, it all boils down to you. Each design and caliber has it's merits and negatives. What is perfect for one person, is not for another. Many factors to consider on your part. If all functions as it should and the gun fires, then all that's left is the ammo/projectile. Is the ammo/projectile adequate to do the job? Many variables to consider. As has been stated already, there have been cases of " less than adequate" or acceptable results with certain calibers. Has it been the actual calibers fault, or the variables of the specific situation? If you have the option to try different designs and calibers and the 9mm is the one which you shoot the best and inspires the most confidience in you, then so be it.

The specifics would now seem to come into play. Attempt to choose the ammo which best enhances your safety. Example: If I have chosen the 9mm, would I want to engage a large drugged out bad guy in the middle of winter who is wearing several layers of clothing, including a heavy jacket with hollow points? Or would I best be served with say 147gr FMJ for better penetration. Would not a premium hollow point best serve me in the middle of summer when everyone is wearing minimal clothing? The specifics of potential situations should help to dictate what you carry in your chosen handgun.

[adorable_harree]

Yep....
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_5034.jpg

Best Wishes,
JP



Wow! I'm in love! What a great looking gun at the top. Is that a new model? Got to find more info about this one.

[Roadkill Bill]

I solved the problem with a 3" S&W .357 K-frame. Beats the 9mm, .40 and .45. O0 (I know . . . I cheated.)

[balldboy]

As I do regularly, I'll suggest you disregard caliber at first. Handle as many firearms as you can. A few of them will "feel right". Pursue those, because if it doesn't feel right in your hands, you won't shoot it enough to become proficient with it. Chances are, that when you find a few that you like, the manufacturer will make it in multiple calibers. THEN begin the caliber debates...... a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .45......;D


Agreed!!!
I like the BHP more than any other gun I own. Second place would go to a S&W 29 5" that is older than me.
Since nobody likes to be bogged down with extra weight, small guns like small bags go everywhere:
I have a very compact S&W 60-3 with wooden Hogue grips that is +P+ tolerant although I'd never practice with that load past my initial familiarization.
My buddy swears by his Glock 23.

Pete

[sharps_74]

I know that it all comes down to what works for you. So here's what I've found that works for me. I carry just about 24/7. What I carry is a Jerico (UZI EAGLE) compact in .40S&W. There's something about that steel framed pistol that I like. Maybe it's the way that the target goes to pieces at 50 meters that tells me that if I need it it'll do the job. What ever weapon you get take the time to put a couple of 100 rounds through it. And carry it while at home to get use to pulling it just in case you need to in town. By the by, I have carried/owned hundreds of handguns in the last 5 years as I do gun shows and this is the only one that fit my hand as though it were made for me.

[Dirty Bob]

The old answer applies here:

It will do, if you will do.

Find a gun that you can carry all the time, in a caliber you shoot well, and don't worry about, just practice more!

I consider the 9mm and .38 Special to be the best starting points for defensive carry. With good ammo, either has done the job many, many times. I often carry either a 9mm, .38 or 9x18mm Makarov. I do not feel undergunned with any of the three. I would not personally carry anything smaller than a .380 ACP, but that's my choice.

This is a very personal question, and one that ultimately you must answer.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

[Brassnut]

Interesting thread cant help but jump in and bang on my favorite rant.

I've shot high and low end on 9mm and 45. I like the idea of the 45. and will always love a 1911 like it was my very first car.
but... Cal. and Make wont make a difference if you can not consistently place shoots. If you don't run a few thousand rounds down range your not going to Iron out your bad habits and fix issues. Dry fire drills on a wall, miss fire drills, feed failure drills. learn ever possible failure and train for it. Murphy is a bastard and you don't want to see him if you actully do EVER have to use it. Train like you fight. Statistics show most self defence attacks happen with in 10 to 20 feet. Try drawing your weapon and reacting to that. learn munavers where you can(there out there)

Every State is different on there guide lines when they teach for carry permits. Take the classes. then take advanced classes. what they teach will help you over come what I have mentioned
now about Glock, Sig, S&W,and all the rest.
Hand gun is a tool, there are many makes that can turn a screw some turn it better than outers based on the handle the size of the tip.

Buy with in your budget Second handed is not a bad thing, then spend the rest of your budget on ammo.
I won't tell you what I shoot and what I like. I use different cal. and makes just for the change.
Holster: DO not run out and but a X hundred dollar holster as soon as you get your gun.
look for one of the plastic $20 ones that you slide on a belt. take the classes and ask questions, see what is carried and how, take notes. you will normaly buy three holsters before your happy. and these will be based on Hot and cold weather.

if you have shoot mostly light Cal. and pick up a 45, well then it will feel like a Hand cannon. don't let that deter you. after a thousand rounds, you will be used to it and your wrist will toughen up.

look at what your local law enforcement carry.
See what the different Millitary groups use.
Standerd issue is 9mm, That may change in the future
the Special ops guys are carrying different cal. and makes.

Lastly Carrying a weapon (LEGALLY PLEASE) isn't going to save you in all situations. It will only improve your odds. If somebody wants your "bling" and walks up on you. you may still lose or never get a chance to defend. if they want material **** let them have it, it can be replaced.
Defend your life and that of your loved ones. Cars are insured junk can be replaced

I wrote this in a hurry for give my grammer and spelling please :luck:

[Ultra]

If I didn't have to use a 9mm USP, I would have a .45 USP because it just fits me better, (perfectly) huge as I am. And I would run +P+ FMJ in it too. 19 rounds are cool, but 13 are adequate. I can't help but feel slightly underpowered with my NATO-loaded 9mm.



Edit: Well after over-simplifying, it's not exactly the standard NATO, but rather a tad heavier 123 grain Fiocchi with a TC FMJ at 1250fps and 425ft-lbs.

[SgtMike]

The 9mm is still a viable defensive cartridge, as long as the user takes the initiative to get out and practice regularly to develop proficiency with it. The beauty of the 9mm is inexpensive practice ammo - I can regularly find factory loaded ball UMC's in my area for <$7/box.

While I much prefer a .Glock 45ACP in or on my belt, there are times when the convenience of a tiny Kahr 9 in my pocket takes precedence. With either, I do not in any way feel undergunned...

M

[gadgetjunky]

Yes, it is, and .38 special too! :D The ability to hit your target accurately and rapidly, proper ammunition selection and the commitment to aggressively engage the threat until it is neutralized are all far more important than caliber.

[EODtech]

I had three 9mm's. A Glock 26, a SIG 239 and a Ruger SP101 stainless 9mm revolver. ALL of the 9mm's have been sold and replaced with a SIG P220 Carry ( 45 ACP) AND a Ruger P345 ( 45 ACP ). First handgun I fired was a Colt 1911 at the NRA National Matches in 1960 when I was 16. The size of these 45's is close to the same weapon offered in 9mm - the extra stopping power of the 45ACP is what convinced me to upgrade from a 9mm. BTW I did pick up a used Glock G-27 in 40S&W which may or may not stay in the inventory - I've been looking hard at a Glock G21SF ( 45 ACP ).

GLOCK is now offering its $100 off to Military / LE / EMS / fire / security personnel. So if you 1st responder folks, want to buy a weapon just call Glock at (770) 432-1202 and get a list of "GLOCK Law Enforcement Dealers" in your state, show up with the required credentials, some cash and you're done. ORIGINAL POST Glock Talk (http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=418378) has more detailed info on credentials / certifications needed and other documentation required before you can purchase your GLOCK. No hurdles to jump over, just make sure you have what is needed or you'll be making a second trip to the dealer.

Glock USA www site (http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm)

[eu_roca191]

The old answer applies here:
Find a gun that you can carry all the time, in a caliber you shoot well, and don't worry about, just practice more!

I consider the 9mm and .38 Special to be the best starting points for defensive carry. With good ammo, either has done the job many, many times. I often carry either a 9mm, .38 or 9x18mm Makarov. I do not feel undergunned with any of the three. I would not personally carry anything smaller than a .380 ACP, but that's my choice.

This is a very personal question, and one that ultimately you must answer.

All my best,
Dirty Bob


:iagree:

[greenLED]

In "The Ayoob Files: The book", Mr. Ayoob relates several incidents where larger caliber didn't stop the threats. After reading that book, I realized that, although caliber does play a role in "stopping power", there are many other factors to consider as well. Practice, practice, and more practice, are among some of them. Oh, yeah, did I mention practice (and not just target shooting - actual force-on-force).

[knot]

Adequate? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbyFnrtUtJQ

A 10mm S-auto, using heavy grains, will produce energy levels of a .357 mag

For a .357 mag semi-auto, I would suggest getting a Desert Eagle but it's a rimmed cartridge and I'm not sure how smooth it is feeding out of the magazine. I've never owned one.

[Ultra]

My next gun will (hopefully) be a .45 USP fullsize. :P

And it WILL see ONLY +P or +P+ ammunition! :lolhammer:



I have to carry a 9mm, but it's ok because I have twice as much in every mag, and 425 ft-lbs 1250 fps hailstorms do the trick :winkwink:

[reinman60]

Just thought I'd add my two cents worth; I'm not an expert by any means. I carry a .45 H&K USP. These are expensive guns (800.00 plus), but some of the toughest and most reliable available. Before being adopted by SOCOM for use by US Special Forces, they had a mean number of rounds fired before failure of 30,000!! And that's without cleaning or maintenance of any kind! You'll never do that, but if your life ever depended on it, that kind of reliability is comforting. It's the best endorsement I could get. I live almost in the wilderness in Montana and spend a lot of time in the back country, and I'm way more worried about moose and bear than bad guys. I want the stopping power of that round. It's not for no reason that the .45 has been the go to round for more than 60 years. Consider their ability to incapacitate with less than lethal shot placement vs. smaller calibers. That being said, A .40 S&W would be OK, too. A little less recoil. I'd definitely consider something bigger than a 9 mm, but that's my bias.

Probably two things to keep in mind. If you can't hit the target, it doesn't matter what kind of gun or what caliber-- it won't do you any good if you can't hit the target. A bunch of people have said it and I concur. Practice is the key. Practice is soooo important.
It's important to develop proficiency and maintain it through regular practice. Finally, try to shoot as many different makes of each caliber as you can. The ergonomics of the gun contributes significantly to perceived recoil. Depends on your grip, the size of your hands relative to the grip shape and size, angle of the grip, and a bunch of other factors. I have big hands, and the perceived recoil of my USP, with its big grip due to the 12 round double stacked magazine, is less than a 1911 with its smaller single stack magazine. Friends of mine with smaller hands who have shot my pistol feel the opposite. So, find something that feels good to you! That, in the final analysis, is most important. That, and lots of practice.

One more thing to consider. I have quite a few friends in law enforcement, and one of my hunting buddies is the County Sheriff. After talking with them I learned that a lot of police and sheriff departments a switching to handguns chambered in .357 sig. They say it has the same or better stopping power than a .40 S&W with significantly less recoil and muzzle rise. Just something else to throw into the mix.

[mr.trooper]

around here, Glocks are all $500 or more.

For less than that, You can get a CZ-75 compact. GREAT reliable gun.

[mr.trooper]

Is the 9mm adequate? Sure. It just depends on how many times you can hit him with it. For that matter, so is a .22. Some one said they weren't interested in "one shot stops." I sure the hell am. In a real life situation you are not shooting at stationary targets. You might be moving, the bad guy might be moving, low light, scared as hell if he's shooting back, etc., etc., etc. You may shoot more than once, but you might only hit him once. If that's the case you want something that is going to do the most damage, make the biggest blood gushing hole possible, and end the encounter as quickly as possible.

I think it was the Illinois Hwy. Patrol that holds the record for hitting a guy 33 times with 9mm before he was stopped with a shotgun? Sure I know about "shot placement" so you don't need to go there, but I find it hard to believe that all 33 hits were somewhere other than the torso. Yes, he was on drugs. So might the guy that breaks into your home. Maybe not as hopped up as this guy was, but hard to stop none the less.

Who knows . . . maybe the bad guy will pose for you so can empty your magazine into him. Not likely.

A 9mm may be "adequate" but a .45 or a .357 is going to be a heck of a lot more adequate. Sometimes I even carry a .41 mag. Some folks might think I'm paranoid, but I plan to be an old paranoid.


What a LOAD of malarkey!

If 33 hits from a 9mm didnt bring him down then a clip of your precious 45 or a cylinder of 357 wouldn't have either.

a Single headshot from a 380 would have. Drugs or not, no brain = no movement. If your on enough drugs, then you dont need a respitory system, and you dont even need much blood. as long as you have structural support from you bones and electrical impulses from your brain your muscles can still move thanks to the drugs. A lung deflated with a 45 caliber hole wont stop this kind of person any faster than a lung deflated by a 9mm hole.

See the point?

[Romeo Joker]

Ohhhh, this looks interesting.

Yes, the 9mm is enough.

I carry a G19 with 10 to 12K of ammo a year put through it.

If you look around you can find them for less than $500 and I wouldn't rule out getting a used one.

After I put mine through a 5K torture test with no cleaning and lube, there isn't much the average person is going to do to that used gun sitting in the Gun Shop's shelf.

So in short, buy a gun that feels good, shoot the **** out of it, and have fun.

[tempmj]

IMHO the caliber of firearm that is adequate is the largest caliber that you feel comfortable with shooting and carrying. I am just fine shooting my compact .45 so no worries there for me. My normal EDC is either a Glock 30 (.45) or a Beretta Tomcat (.32). There's a huge difference in the stopping power of the two, but some situations warrant the added ease of concealment of the Tomcat (i have a pocket holster and it works great in my front pocket). However if i can go with a shirt untucked or jacket I would prefer my glock. Hope this helps.

[dd61999]

I think this debate is meaningless, all handgun rounds are inadequate. 80% of all handgun victims live. Get a 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buckshot and make sure that sucker is dead.

Samething goes for hunting I got tired of tracking animals ( by the way I can shoot 1 inch groups). I now make all shots with a shotgun at close range or make headshots. Boom!!! they are down.

[b.s.]

Sure buck shot is like raid... it kills things DEAD...

But shotguns don't really lend themselves to EDC unless you're in the wilderness.

9 mil is sufficient if you want to stop something, but training is key, and actually carrying is paramount.





I think this debate is meaningless, all handgun rounds are inadequate. 80% of all handgun victims live. Get a 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buckshot and make sure that sucker is dead.

Samething goes for hunting I got tired of tracking animals ( by the way I can shoot 1 inch groups). I now make all shots with a shotgun at close range or make headshots. Boom!!! they are down.

[Gatsby]

I was discussing this the other day with my brother in law - and I've been thinking a good deal about it in the context of my own personal safety and family safety. As for a home situation, I will have a 12 gauge. I'm proficient enough from sporting clays to be comfortable with handling that in a crisis and quite happy with the predicted results.

As for personal concealed carry - that is a whole different ball of wax and the caliber debate, as stated, has a long history. I can certainly drive tacks with a Ruger MkII with a 5 inch bull barrel, but that isn't much of a practical carry gun on a lot of fronts obviously. Like so many things there is no one answer that fits all, no one solution that fits all, and there are real world tradeoffs. I think that all other things being equal if you can carry a certain size firearm in either a .45 or a 9mm, shoot them equally well, then you'd go for the larger caliber. But all things are not equal. How you carry will place certain parameters on what is practical, as will your personal frame size, hand size, etc... I've shot a standard steel 1911A and that is a pleasant pistol relatively speaking to shoot. Maybe not as much as a full size 9mm but certainly manageable. But given my normal M-F attire and build there is no way I could carry one daily. I tried a friends little Kimber ultra carry and to be honest that small, light pistol, along with my hand and frame size was not a good combination. I sure could carry it but I didn't enjoy shooting it. My carry needs require smaller, lighter and flatter, which tend to favor a smaller caliber round to shoot comfortably in that kind of frame. Admittedly, I've shot a lot of 9mm and generally speaking I've been drawn to that caliber as the best overall combination of power and accuracy in my hands. It also realistically is about the best option for me given my carry needs. I have a lot of confidence in that round in certain firearms, which means a lot... If I could find a small, light .45 that I could shoot worth a darn, maybe I'd reconsider!

[Dirty Bob]

Gatsby,

Sounds like you've found a solution that works for you. That small 9mm on your hip is much more useful than a larger gun that gets left at home in the safe. If you practice with the 9mm and load it with good ammo, that will probably see you through just fine.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

[PX]

JMOFO:

With correct shot placement a single 22cal. round is adequate.

But to answer your question, 13 bazillion people have been killed quite thoroughly over the years with the 9mm round.. :D

Of course in defensive rounds bigger is always better, but you have to compromise with the firearm you can ACTUALLY carry with you.

I feel adequately armed with my Seecamp LWS32... You might not :-X

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_6811_01.jpg

Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy





JP

[Jim101]

Have you seen the new KT 9mm? Sweet and small.......I carry a KT .32 with silverpoints, and feel safe. It's all in the placement..

Jim

[Lugsalot]

There's some good, well-balanced information on this topic here (http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm) and here (http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Defensive%20Browning%20Hi%20Power.htm).

[mr.trooper]

I look at it this way, which would you rather have, a supercharged 350 small block putting out 700hp, or a naturaly aspirated 454 big block making the same power? In reality, they both do the same thing, but the small block does it in a more compact package.


Except the small block in your scenario is under a crap-load of extra compresion seeing as its going to need about 18PSI of boost to reach 700hp. with that much boost on an engine your always running the risk of a failure. The normally aspirated 454 is going to be a hell of a lot more durable.

Smaller package doesnt realy come into play either. LOTS of 2 door pony cars have engines that big in them. The Challenger and Barracuda both had the 426 hemi despite being small pony cars. the Trans Am had the 455 super duty.

[VVR41TH]

Before I say anything else, I'll say that I've only shot a .38, but I'll put in my $0.02 anyways. From what I can see, the .45 advocates seem to bank on the "one-shot stop," with the 9mm's responding with "two to center mass, one to the head" argument. Now, simple math: if I remember correctly, a 1911A1 can hold 7 rounds; by the 9mm response, they'd need to be packing 21 to be equal. What does a hi-cap Glock pack? 20+1. However, 9mm is cheaper... per round. But, after some quick research, it turns out that they're about the same "equivalent" price. For comparable-quality ammo, 60 rounds of 9mm is about the same as 20 rounds of .45ACP. This (finally) brings me to my point.

Is it really .45 v 9mm?

...or, perhaps, .45 = 9mm?

P.S. Try not to flame me -too- much; it's only my first post.

[dtrain]

I hope I dont start a fight over this one.I have not had to carry a firearm since I stopped managing a Security Company a long time ago.I think I spent more time covering posts than anything.I figure if I ever decide to get a ccw where I live I would not have any problems with a small 9mm.
I think that with the apropriate ammuntion it is just as good as a .45 or other calibers.The important thing to me would be if you can hit what you are shooting at when you need to and will the gun of your choices be with you when you actually need it.Not sitting in a drawer somewhere because it is too heavy.
When I had too work armed our fair city would only let us carry 38spcl. 158grn Lead round nose bullets at 850fps.I know that this is not the most spectacular of stoppers,so I practiced as much as possible because I realized where I hit my target was even more important considering the round that I carried.
If you find a gun that you are comfortable with and can hit what you aim at I think you have won 75percent of the battle.

Thats my humble opinion.Good luck.

Dtrain

[Lugsalot]

Welcome to EDCF, VVR41TH! :highfive:

Here are some of my thoughts on the caliber debate:

There are a lot of generalizations in the "caliber wars" debate, and it's not really possible to adequately quantify some of the variables involved (such as how much physical damage a given projectile will reliably inflict to a given target).

Unfortunately, we require concrete data in order to make good decisions. This is why we've tried and tried to distill the performance of a given round down into as little information as possible, so that we can compare them and say "THIS one is best over ALL!"

To some extent, this works: I'd definitely say that a 9mm is better than the old .41 rimfire round from over a century ago, and that the new .38 Special is superior to the anemic .38 Long. These are extreme examples, but proof that one round can be superior to another.

Many people use logistics to decide which to carry:

* Full-size handguns tend to carry 13-20 rounds of 9mm, whereas full-size handguns in .45ACP tend to carry less (7-13).
* 9mm is cheaper than .45ACP, so I can train more for less money.
* 9mm is more common the world over, so I can find ammo wherever I go.

Others use scientific tests to aid their decision-making, and base their choices on energy-levels, muzzle-velocities, trajectories and terminal balistics. "The .45 delivers more engergy to the target, and this load creates a bigger wound-cavity in ballistic gelatin than the 9mm I tested earlier," they might say. "I would trust my life to THIS round over the 9mm!"

But it's not so easy (please forgive the overly-simplistic examples above), and for all the "evidence" brought up by either side, it becomes clearer and clearer that if someone has become comfortable with a given caliber, they will have learned to shoot it well from a variety of weapons.

I think the most important piece of information to consider about handgun rounds is that ALL of them can fail to stop an attacker, and that we should not trust our lives to numbers. One ought to train with as many weapons in as many calibers as he can manage, and decide which caliber is likely the best for him based on his own set of criteria.

In trained hands, a handgun in any caliber is deadly effective. It is also limited in the fact that it's ONLY a handgun, and that it and the rounds it fires are all equally susceptible to the whim of Murphy's Law.

[Sun195]

Get what you shoot well and don't worry about it. I like shooting 9mm better than .45 and so bought one of those. I'd never suggest it's better than a .45, but I feel more confident using it, so that's what I'm going with.

[BroBrandonB]

9mm is most definitely adequate..


yep.

[grayelky]

Caliber debates are great for taking up a lot of room and time, and really accomplishing nothing.

First, my personal favorite is 45 ACP.

I have and carry regularly, depending on clothing and job/errand: S&W 1911Sc 45 ACP; KelTec P11 9mm; KelTec P32 32ACP; Charter Arms (original) Bulldog 44Sp; S&W Mod. 38 Bodyguard .38 Sp; S&W Mod. 65 3" .357 Mag; and ALL the time, NAA Mini 22 LR.

I can place a bullet from any of these in a 3" circle at 15' with great repeatability. (The NAA is a 3' gun.) The thing all of these have in common, except the 357 mag, is they are light weight. I started carrying a gun back in 1974. I soon learned a heavy gun is soon a forgotten gun.

Is a 9mm adequate? Sometimes. Sometimes not. Always remember this: the handgun was invented as a way to get man back to his primary weapon: His rifle.

To be an adequate self defense round, a pistol bullet has to be placed in a vital area. This means a lot of practice. Use your .22 handgun to get the bulk of this, and then spend time with your carry gun.

You can spend your budget on a Glock (I have several, and like them OK, just don't carry them.) Or you can spend $250 on a KelTec P11 and spend $250 on ammo. The KT P11 will give you 11 rounds in a package that is lighter than most guns are empty. The KT PF9 is the same size as the P11, although lighter by 2-4 oz. I would prefer the extra 9mm ammo, and I don't like heavy guns. Another poster mentioned the Kahr. It is not likely you will find a PM 9 or PM 40 within your budget, but if you do, it will make an excellent carry gun. Just be sure you can handle the 40. It has quite a bite, on both ends. And don't forget nite sights. Most bad guys prefer the dark. Having said all this, the single most important factor in chosing a gun is how it feels/fits your hand.

After you get comfy with your choice - whatever it turns out to be - and you feel you are ready to carry it daily, come back and make a post about holsters. They are just as important as the gun for carry comfort.

Now, for your back up carry gun...

[USP45]

First you say you want to plink just a once in a while, then you want to practice regularly. I don't know which it is, but if you live in the city get a 357 SIG fullsize or a 9mm and run it +P+ ~125 grain, and if you live in any place 200 miles from a bear, moose or otherwise unpaved outdoors, get a .45 or 10mm.

[Jorge Banner]

...for EDC or self defense if necessary.

I have been contemplating on purchasing a new pistol and I've been thinking heavily about a 9mm but I'm not sure if it is the right size for what I need.

I mainly want it to do some plinking every once and a while and carry it for self defense occasionally. I have a Browning Buckmark Bullseye and a Ruger Single Six .22 LR/.22 Mag. revolver that I use for sport shooting. I'd really like to get one that I can plink with and also carry for self defense. The Browning and Ruger are way too large for EDC in my opinion. Size matters as I would like to keep it in my bag but also carry it on my person if I wanted, maybe in a pocket or elsewhere.

Basically, I want a small pistol that I can shoot and practice with often that won't break my wallet but also still serve adequately for self defense if I ever need it, God forbid.

Any suggestions? :confused:




I'm, of course, a little late to this thread. Allow me, nonetheless, to give you this example, for what it may be worth: suppose you were living in the middle ages, before the invention of firearms. Suppose you came to a gathering of warriors and asked if it was OK to arm yourself with a kitchen knife. That's it. :luck:

[politenessman]

First, its all about shot placement, not caliber.
Second, its about carrying, not leaving your pistol at home because its too big/heavy/awkward/etc to carry.
I carry a Bersa Thunder (.380 auto), because it fits me well, and with my body shape it conceals well.. Its not a 45, but is it adequate? I certainly think so. Ask yourself this of any caliber - do YOU want to get shot by it?

[Jorge Banner]

First, its all about shot placement, not caliber.
Second, its about carrying, not leaving your pistol at home because its too big/heavy/awkward/etc to carry.
I carry a Bersa Thunder (.380 auto), because it fits me well, and with my body shape it conceals well.. Its not a 45, but is it adequate? I certainly think so. Ask yourself this of any caliber - do YOU want to get shot by it?


You carry an arggie gun, uh? Not too bad, I have a Bersa 24, for plinking. Not the best, either.

I always remember why Americans invented the .45. They had a reason. The reason is still valid, today. (more so, today :evil: ;D )

I don't want to be even tickled with a hypodermic needle.

Now, self defense, again, think of yourself in the middle of a medieval melee. Do you really want to be there ferociously brandishing a kitchen knife? Sure you can kill somebody with it. You can also bore them to death telling them some story.

Self defense can mean an enraged 300 pounds gorilla one yard in front of you, dressed for Antarctica. Again, :luck:

[Rob72]

Suppose you came to a gathering of warriors and asked if it was OK to arm yourself with a kitchen knife. That's it. :luck:


Like a skein dugh, maybe...or a kiridashi? ;)

[Jorge Banner]

Like a skein dugh, maybe...or a kiridashi? ;)


Yeap, exactly.

[Warp]

Yes, 9x19 is adequate.

My EDC is a Glock 26 with 11 (or 18) rounds of 124gr +P Speer Gold Dots.

When not at work I also carry a S&W 642 (.38spl) with ballistics very similar to 9mm.



What matters is shot placement. Using quality defensive hollow points certainly helps as well.

[temujin]

...for EDC or self defense if necessary.


If you carry for self defense, make it EDC or not at all. If you don't, it will never look natural when you carry and all the wrong people will know you have a gun. You will also never develop a smooth stroke if you don't carry consistently and practice from the actual carrying place. This practice will also tell you if your carry method is realistic.

Similarly, if you intend to use a gun for self defense, get training from a documented instructor. Don't waste your time plinking. It wasn't until I started IPSC competition (yes, back then) that I realized that plinking only ingrained bad habits and was no substitute for proper training with a good coach.

Lethal force is not a game. If you carry, get quality training and stay in practice.

A 9mm is enough... if you know what you're doing. If not, a .45 isn't enough. There isn't enough gun in the world to make up for a lack of skill.

[heathah]

Wow, I didn't realize this thread would start so much debate back when I started it a year and a half ago.

Thanks for all the input guys. This thread has made a good read.

I'm still interested in hearing more, though, so keep it coming. :)

Heath

[kuh]

Size doesn't matter as long as you know how to use it. Practice and some more practice to make any size a lethal weapon.

[hso]

Yes, if you can hit with it rapidly and repeatedly, but that's the same as with a .40, 10mm or .45. Instead of spending a lot of money on different guns you are much better off finding the gun that fits you and spending the rest of your gun budget on defensive shooting training. Once you get through your first serious 2 or 3 day handgun course you'll know how to run the gun well enough to decide if you want to go up in caliber.

[ballistic]

I've seen someone survive a .45ACP to the head, another survive multiple .45ACP gunshot wounds to the torso and extremities, and another person die from a single .22 short to the heart. When it comes to self defense and neutralizing a threat, it's all about shot placement: center mass or "2+1". Most modern 9mm self defense ammunition have sufficient terminal ballistics to reach vital organs or the central nervous system.

Reliable equipment, knowing your equipment, proper training from qualified instructors, practice, having the proper mindset to react appropriately in a lethal encounter, and being aware of and prepared for possible civil and criminal liability are important considerations for carrying a firearms for self defense.

[Johnjeeper]

I m not a ballistics guy, but this place I teach we have done some intresting tissue testing, and what I have found is this, it is really about the ammo itself, not the cal. The majority of the time we use 9mm, (ball, hp, and some special rounds), same gun, obvious difference in damage patterns. One of my coworkers did a comparison with his subcompact .380, glazer safety rounds did just as much damage as the 9mm. I saw a post with the EGA way down there, and I agree with him, loose the cal thought, find a reliable weapon that works for you, become proficient, then start playing with ammo variations.