Thoughts on Watches

[Heck]

Watches and pens are 2 things that I really enjoy, so I'll open this watch category with my opinions on watches.

Most watches people buy these days all come or originated or have parts from some same company. Cheaper watches usually use Japanese parts and movements, while more "prestigious" watches use Swiss movements. Dirt cheap find in cereal box watches probably sport some Chinese movement.

First I'll dab at the difference between quartz and automatic watches. Quartz need a battery and ultimately are a lot more accurate than mechanical watches. Mechanical watches are all mechanical and are powered by manual winding or rotor wind and are affected by many variables, so they are not as accurate as quartz watches. So yes, basically a $3K Auto Rolex is not as accurate as a $20 Quartz Timex. So why do people pay thousands for manual/auto watches? Because of the mechanics and movements that it takes to build an auto watch and see it all in action. Sort of like doing it the hard way for something that can be done much simpler.

Some auto/mech watches, especially more expensive ones are chronometer certified, meaning it's 99.9% accurate, which translates to -4 to +6 seconds a day. Most quartz watches fair better.

Anyway, I can go on and on about this but I'll move over to swiss made watches now.

I'm gonna focus on swiss watches as most people usually go toward swiss made watches when looking for something better than the wal mart watch.

The Swiss watch industry began a long time ago when labour in Switzerland was cheap. Eventaully it evolved into their expertise. Come the 1980's the Swiss watch industry almost fell apart as people flocked to cheap japanese made quartz watches. The swatch group bought out and acquired Swiss watch companies, centralized it and basically saved the industry in my opinion.

People tend to think Swatch as cheap plastic watches, but most watches made in Switzerland belong to the Swatch group. If it's not a Swatch group company, you probably have a Swatch part in your watch. This is because ETA is a Swatch group company, and they made movements for watches, both auto and quartz.

Companies buy these movements and put them in their watches. Some companies try to hide this fact, some companies modify it a bit, some a lot and name it their own movements, but they originated from Swatch's ETA. So beware, say a Hamilton Auto Khaki watch, priced much lower than a Ball watch, may have the exactly the same mechanics underneath.

For example. I see a lot of people loving their Luminox watches. Luminox use ETA movements. In essence, Luminox is a case maker. They design and manufacture the case, the dial, and then slap in the already made ETA movement from Swatch. Thus you see Swiss written on Luminox watches. So if you really look at it, Luminox don't make watches, they make watch cases. Nothing wrong with this as why spend so much on developping your own movement when such movements are already available and are proven.

In another way of looking a it, it's like one GM having equivalent products with Pontiac/Chevrolet/Buick, different looks etc, but same mechanics, platform etc.

Just an extra FYI, Rolex makes their own movements, which contributes to their prestige and costs.

[EDC HQ]

Interesting information Heck,

Do these movment makers make the movment in different grades?

[JonSidneyB]

oops,

Lets try this again.

Interesting information Heck,

Do these movment makers make the movment in different grades?

[B@rt]

I just bought this Luminox, hopefully it has a decent ETA movement. ;)
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4033/lstealthtitanium5008fj.jpg

Would another (better) movement fit if it is not up to standard?

[rscanady]

My Doxa is swiss and i believe they also have their own movements.

"High grade Swiss made 25 jewel self-winding mechanical movement with hacking seconds, 28800 beats per hour, 42 hours of power reserve based on ETA 2824, modified and decorated by DOXA"

anyhow I always wanted one after reading the Dirk Pitt novels and looking at them about 6 years ago and finally got one:

http://home.comcast.net/~rscanady/officecarry.jpg

[Heck]

Most definately ETA has many different levels of movements. Not only that, they have plenty of different designs too. Most of these different designs came from when Swatch group acquired other companies, especially other movement companies.

The differences usually are better quality parts leading to lasting longer, perhaps more accurate, more robust etc....and some are different to have complications (perpetual dates, moon phases etc etc)

As for the Luminox F117, I believe it has a standard ETA quartz, but I forget which model. As I mentioned before, quartz are a lot more accurate than automatics, losing or gaining the same amount of seconds in a few months of that an auto watch may lose in one day. Your swiss quartz may keep the same time as a $20 Timex, but the difference between Timex's quartz and your Swiss Quartz are the quality of the parts. For example, Timex quartz got plastic gears, where the swiss ones use alloy gears. Eventually the $20 Timex will wear out.....but it may take awhile. So it's up to you to determine if it's worth it. Watches have come to a point where a ceral box freebie watch can be made for a few cents and keep better time than a rolex.

As for the Doxa, I like Doxa's, but they don't make their own movements. The ETA-2824 is a very popular movement in most entry-level to mid-priced watches. It's a good design and costs about $60 to consumers. It's not the most robust but it will hold its own. They are usually not chronometer certified and from experience, run about 10 seconds fast a day for a good one. To illustrate the application range, you can find this movement in a Tag Heuer Carrera for $1500, while the exact same movement is featured in a $300 Tissot Le Locle. Both companies do not modify these movements much, and if they claim they do, it's usually just painting the rotor to say Tag Heuer or something small like that. In fact, some of them are ordered from ETA to have these "modifications" made, so the companies don't even really touch them.

So in essence, you need to see these companies as watch case and dial designers and watch assemblers. I see your DOXA 750T retails for $1890, and sports a ETA 2824. The modifications they talk about is their name printed on the rotor. So yes your watch has the exact same guts as a $300 watch, but what you bought was the case design, assembly and quality and in many times, the prestige. Is it worth it? That's up to you. In my opinion, it's how the game played, and watch companies make A LOT of money this way.

The only thing that bothers me about watch companies is the extent they try to hide the fact their movement is not in-house but an off the shelf movement that any other watch company has access to. They rename the movement to something like Tag Heuer Caliber 5 or something. Or some are more honest and say based on ETA 2824, but all they did was print or engrave a nice design on the rotor or some part. What consitutes modification is a grey area, some watch companies really do modify the base movement by adding different gears, polishing parts to run smoother etc.

To understand why most companies use ETA movements is because they are proven, reliable and most importantly cost. Why design your own movement when it will cost more and is not proven and might even run crappier. Let alone the costs and logistics in building them. In my opinion, if you use an ETA movement, just say it, don't hide it. And only write it's modified if somethign significant was modified, say like an extra jewel was added to make it smoother running.

Some companies now are making their own movements for their top of the line models, but you pay their R&D costs in the watch, but this just makes it more prestigous. The mechanical watch market has been booming, so people want more special watches with unique movements.

[B@rt]

Thanks for the info! :)

[rscanady]

very good info, thanks alot. Fortunately I did not pay retail for my Doxa, I actually found a decent deal second hand. My particular watch in not chrono certified as you stated, but it does pretty well at about 4 seconds a day offset. But you are definitely correct in the "prestige" part of the price for many watches out there.


Ryan

[harrydog]

Some Swiss watchmakers not only use the very best movements that ETA offers, but then go the extra step and improve upon it. IWC is a good example of this. The ETA movements they use are the best that ETA has to offer. Many of the parts are actually disgarded and replaced with higher quality parts of their own manufacture. Most all of the other parts are furthur polished and finished before the final assembly of the movement. The end result is a movement that is most likely longer lasting and more accurate than the ETA movement that it is based upon.
Here are two links discussing the Valjoux 7750 (ETA) used by IWC.

http://www.iwcforum.com/Uhrenjournal.html
http://www.timezone.com/library/comarticles/comarticles631681571896618891

[PWork]

Valjou and Unitas movements are ETA.

[Bravo 25]

Very good information here. I have learned a lot about watch movements, and with this pace being set, I will learn a lot more. I never really considered the information posted here. Thanks

[Sunnie]

I just bought this Luminox, hopefully it has a decent ETA movement. ;)
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4033/lstealthtitanium5008fj.jpg

Would another (better) movement fit if it is not up to standard?


It's a rhonda quartz. If it dies, it should be fairly easy to just stick in a new movement. It also might just be easier to buy a new quartz watch at that price point, taking account of wear and tear on the case and crystal too.

Sunnie

[B@rt]

Thanks Sunny.
The watch should hold up to wear and tear pretty well, being Ti and sapphire crystal, so if needed I'm sure a new movement will be cheaper. ;)

[Sunnie]

Thanks Sunny.
The watch should hold up to wear and tear pretty well, being Ti and sapphire crystal, so if needed I'm sure a new movement will be cheaper. ;)



Oops. Hadn't realised it was ti! That's my favorite watch material. Well, if it ever dies (and, to be honest, it's a very remote possibility and won't happen for a long long time, and may not happen at all, and i hope i doesn't) then you definitely need to keep the ti case and just stick in a new movement. I like the bezel on your watch a lot BTW -- also gives you a convenient timing device in the same package.

Sunnie

[uspopo]

Thanks for the very helpful info! You learn something new everyday... O0

[TKC]

Wow, this is a most excellent thread!! Thank you so much for the info!! I learn soemthing new everyday!!

[Tom Anderson]

"So beware, say a Hamilton Auto Khaki watch, priced much lower than a Ball watch, may have the exactly the same mechanics underneath."

That's exactly why I wear the Hamilton Auto Khaki Chrono (it uses the val 7750). Great "bang-for-the-buck!" ;D

[kwozi]

Really great thread everybody. I've picked up some of these facts over the years, but it's nice to have it all spelled out in one place. Interesting to know what it is that some watch companies really do when they say they "modify" the movement.

[sensen_no_sen]

Excellent and informative thread Heck. Many folk who buy 'luxury' watches have little idea of precisely what they are getting. And you are spot on about Swatch saving the Swiss industry.

[boof]

heck,

thanks for this information. I think this is the most informative post I have read on this forum. from what you said the value of a watch is to a large extent what is important to the customer. are there any things that a person should look for that would indicate regardless of price or type of watch they the consumer should avoid? I am not in the market for a new watch right here right now but that will be happening very soon. thanks.

[kwozi]

One thing occurred to me regarding this thread topic is that once upon a time I used to value automatic mechanical watches due to their not needing a battery or to be wound. It never was about the "prestige" of ownership, but purely for the way they seemed to be dependable and trouble free. Now as I understand things, a mechanical watch needs regular maintenance trips to the jewelers just like a car gets a tune up from a mechanic to keep it running well. I guess that's the trade off you get for not needing to worry about replacing a battery.

Also, I read somewhere that mechanical watches are somewhat more susceptible to failure than a quartz or a digital due to their complicated internal movements. More moving parts equaling more chance of something going awry. Hence the better ones may have shock absorbing cases to cut down on the chance of this happening. So then not only are quartz and digital watches generally more accurate, but seemingly they're also less likely to crap out on you in the "field" :shocked:. The flip-side to this would be that it's not too likely that you'd ever want to pass on your Target $20 watch to your kid.

What do you guys think? Is this generally true? And what about some of the higher end watches like IWC or Kobold which have specific customizations or case structures to protect their inner workings. Are they really worth the price tag?

[sensen_no_sen]

And what about some of the higher end watches like IWC or Kobold which have specific customizations or case structures to protect their inner workings. Are they really worth the price tag?


Aside from the snobbery and 'exclusivity marketing' that does exist in much of the Swiss auto industry, which is a bit of a turn off, there are some stunning and extremely capable timepieces. The mark-up on luxury goods is huge, however, and the best value is often to be had in the entry level models of the Swiss brands.

Brands such as Bell and Ross and IWC produce some of the highest specifications available, but how many folk would take such watches into a truly harsh environment? I know....some would.

It's all about personal taste and specific requirements. For me, autos fall at the 'first hurdle', ie. they don't tell the time as accurately as quartz (and I happen to prefer a digital display). However, there will always be a market for autos, based on the appeal of the beautiful movements, craftsmanship etc..

They're different animals, quartz and auto.

[kwozi]

They're different animals, quartz and auto.

Thanks Sensen_no_Sen, couldn't agree with you more. Having long approached the watch game from the "more expensive probably means better" angle, this is still quite an eye-opener to me.

My personal taste in watches has always been for reliable and long-lasting pieces. When I had saved the money years ago, I originally got a Rolex Oyster Perpetual thinking that it would be the penultimate watch since it's a Rolex and all; just the most popular choice in higher end timepieces. Not that it wasn't a nice watch, but my expectations exceeded the results I got from it.

Anyhow, these days I have a nice Marathon TSAR. A tough quartz watch that so far hasn't let me down.

Granted, it's not that I venture in to the wilds all that regularly, but having been to some far off places like the Khampa hinterlands of Tibet and (very) rural India, I do want a watch that can come along with me there, be relied upon to keep the correct time, and still make it back home in one working piece.

Again though, I guess the whole point is that this is my criteria for what I find valuable in a watch, but isn't necessarily everyones.

[cave dave]

Seiko and Citizen make some excellent automatics and you get what you pay for! None of that "prestige" stuff driving up prices. Although they do have some pretty expensive stuff too. (See Sringdrive (http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/seiko/springdrive/SeikoSDPart1.htm))

Sometimes you get more than you pay for. I have a $50 Ebay Seiko auto thats off less than 20 sec/month. Thats better than some quartz.

[kwozi]

I actually once had a nice little Hamilton Khaki that ran like a charm too. Probably about +/- 20 seconds a month as well. Neat little watch that I should have held on to. Actually, i think that Heck even mentions that the Khaki may have the same movement as some "higher-end" watches. And the best part is that it only set me back about $150 on eBay.